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Post #2 made 10 years ago
by PistolPatch
Seeing as you aren't having any luch as yet mj, have a hunt around with Google until you find something that looks as though it might be what you are after and have integrity. Gordon Strong has a rye saison recipe here that is fermented at 29 C / 84 F!

See what you come up with and then we can scale it.

:peace:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 31 May 2014, 16:35, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #4 made 10 years ago
by PistolPatch
Geez, mj, you need to reply faster on this forum - I'd almost forgotten you. And the guys here, including me, I think misinterpreted your first post in this thread. We thought you already had a collection of BIABacus files in a spreadsheet but on a second reading, I'm thinking you don't. Can you reply in that thread and sort us all out? ;).
mj05 wrote:Thx PistolPatch. I’ll try to adopt this recipe for Biab. Looks “strongly” optimistic :thumbs:
You got me all excited when you said optimistic and I thought. "I'll do mj a favour and put that rye saison recipe into the BIABacus and make it the first recipe in the final pre-release!!!" :party: :party: :party:

Two hours later and that recipe has me totally buggered.

Every number in that recipe contradicts itself. The BIABacus is the fastest way to check a recipe and I ran that recipe through in every possible way and always found an error. I even ran it through Beersmith in case I had forgotten a Beersmith error but no. [Advanced USers: In the end, I got colour, IBU* and VAW agreeing but the kettle efficiency would have been 65% which is ridiculous.]

Very dissapointed in this one. Sorry mj, I thought the recipe would be of high integrity. Usually I can work out what (program and/or formula/terminology/assumption/errors) have been used. The detail in the recipe seemed fairly good and with Gordon Strong backing it, I thought this would be a great recipe. What a shame.

It just goes to remind me that there is so little awareness of how poor programs and terminology are.

Anyway, if anyone manages to make sense of this one, please let us know.
PP

(*IBU's in Beersmith ranged were 25.4 Gareatz, 39.1 Tinseth and 41.9 Rager before adjusting for the BS formula errors and for leaf hops.)
Last edited by PistolPatch on 04 Jun 2014, 20:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #5 made 7 years ago
by Wyoracer
So, from what I can find here in the recipe forums no one has posted a saison BIABacus recipe or did my search not find a hidden one?
Drink beer, ride bike, repeat til empty
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Post #7 made 7 years ago
by Brew4me
Hey Wyoracer,
I actually brewed a saison from a recipe out of the Brewing Classic Styles book by Zainasheff and Palmer last summer - tasted pretty good - plan on brewing it again later this summer. I would highly recommend the book, but since the recipe was not tweaked or anything it would not be appropriate for me to post. I don't think we have any agreements with the authors to post their recipes. If someone knows otherwise let me know...

Pete
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Last edited by Brew4me on 02 Jun 2016, 09:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #8 made 7 years ago
by Brew4me
I just did a quick google - looks like the recipe is floating out there from a past pod cast by one of the authors (at least that is what one reference stated) The recipe I did was called Raison D'Saison - I used hallertua hops and Belle Saison dry yeast. Like I said the recipe was good - the beer had a real nice dry finish. Damn, now I wish I had one now...
Pete
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Saison receipe

Post #9 made 7 years ago
by Contrarian
I probably have a few saison recipes at home I could post but it really is a very simple beer to make if you follow some basic principles.

Keep the grain bill simple. Mainly Pilsner (95%) and the rest crystal or carapils to add a bit of body/colour.

Mash low. 63C is a good target. You want it to finish nice and low so it is dry and session able.

Go easy on the hops. You want to balance the bitterness but the aroma and flavour should come from the yeast predominantly. Especially for your first one minimize late additions and see what the yeast can bring.

Fermentation is critical here. Pick a good liquid saison yeast, it's well worth the investment. Ferment it warm to hot. Where possible I like to push the temperature up to around 30C to beget big the funk. You also need to be patient. Some yeast might take 3 weeks or more to finish and some will get down to around 1.000 but the last few points can take a while.

One of my favourite beers to ferment in summer at ambient and a great session beer at lower starting gravities.

Post #10 made 7 years ago
by PistolPatch
Please post them Contrarian :drink:.

Have been brewing with a friend lately who is making me brew all these crazy beers :) (Today we brewed a black forest stout :o.) She wants to brew a Saison for the Royal Perth Beer Show but I've never done one so would really appreciate any recipes and any other tips from you or brew4me :pray:.

Sinkas said we'd want a pretty massive starter?

I'm very happy to hear as much detail as you troops can give.

:salute:
PP
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Post #11 made 7 years ago
by Lumpy5oh
I'd live to learn everything I can about this as well. I haven't attempted one yet because I was unsure of the fermentation schedule.
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Post #13 made 7 years ago
by Brew4me
So I brewed it once and as you can see from the pic above - came out nice. As Contrarian said it was pretty simple as far as some brews go.

80% of my grain was pilsner, some equal parts of wheat and munich, touch of caramunich and about 3/4 pounds (335 grams) of cane sugar. I was doing 13.7L (3.6G) VIF. Yeah I'm one of those stove top guys. motto: brew smaller, brew different, brew often - variety is the spice of life...

As far as fermentation I started at ~68F (20C), and then ramped up the temperature to ~80F (26C) over the course of the fermentation. The dry danstar belle worked great (and will use it again) there was a nice peppery spice to it with a very dry finish. The attenuation was in the high 70% area. Hit 1.002 FG (OG 1.060).

For the next saison brew I am going with some liquid yeast to compare (WLP565 Belgian Saison I - they have a II (WLP566) if you want more fruity ester).

On the hop front, my notes say I used tettnang US (woody, spicy) at 60 min and at 0 I used the hallertau (~27IBU)
that's about all I got, except for a new craving to brew some Saison. Need to get that Lost Abby RIS (from Rick) brewed first so it can age 6 months before December.
Pete
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Post #14 made 7 years ago
by Contrarian
Alright, I promised I would post some recipes here as BIABacus files but in flicking through my records I only have 2 saved as saison recipes and I seem to have saved over both of them with wheat beers. Doesn't say much for my records management!

Normally my jumping off point for recipes is BCS, they tend to be solid and to style so give you something to work from.

Grain bill: mainly pilsner malt, 70-80%, the bulk of the rest of the grain bill is normally a combination of wheat and either munich or vienna (5-15% each) and you can also add some crystal malt, this is mainly for colour and shouldn't be more than 2-3%. I also add about 2% acidulated to all my lighter coloured beers as I find it get's my mash pH in the right range and I get better efficiency.

Gravity: I normally make saisons as a session beer so target a low OG of around 1.040 - 1.045 although I have some made some other versions for bottling and sharing that have been up to 1.060. I hope for a final gravity as close to 1.000 as possible and can normally get them down to 1.002 - 1.006 depending on what the starting gravity is and what yeast is used.

Mash temp: I mash low and long for saisons, I like to get them as dry as possible and while the yeast helps with this I find that mashing at 63C for 2 hours gives a highly fermentable wort.

Hops: not that important for the style. Traditionally you would use noble varieties and I have used Saaz a few times with good results but I have also used english and US hops to good effect. Spicy hop notes will play well with the flavours from the yeast. If anything they should provide a back drop to the main flavours of the beer. Aim for around 25IBUs, mainly from a 60 minute addition but a small flame out addition isn't out of place, once again spicy flavours will play well with the yeast.

Yeast: absolutely make or break for this beer and there is quite a good range in the liquid varieties. I have never used the dry offerings but I am sure that they will work well. I've listed some of my favourites that I have used.

Wyeast PC 3726 Farmhouse Ale - I have used this more than others and love the flavour it brings, good funk when fermented at higher temperatures, almost some creamy notes with a bit of spice. Not sure if you can still get this yeast, I recently bought a smack pack that was quite old but it kicked off well in a starter and fermented out fine.

Yeast Bay Saison Blend - I have only used this once but was really impressed by the flavour it produced. Much crisper and zestier than the farmhouse ale and made a fruity and refreshing saison.

Yeast Bay saison and brettanomyces blend - This could be the pick of the bunch if you are after the funk but also requires much more patience than the other beers. Still some zest but the brett flavour really shone through. After this was close to final gravity I transferred to a 20L cube with a tap on it and left it for about 3 months before bottling. This has been enjoyed by many other brewers.

Fermentation: For saisons basically everything you have been told about fermenting beer. Normally you are trying to keep temperatures under control to minimise the esters that the yeast throws but these beers are all about the esters. I like to ferment them up around 30C and normally pitch at ambient before ramping up although I often ferment these in summer when ambient temperatures are high but I have also been known to use a heat pad or in a pinch a bare light bulb on the heat side of my STC-1000 to get it up there.

These yeasts can take a while to finish, typically they take off with a massive flurry but can take a while to really finish off. There's no problems with leaving these in primary for 3-4 weeks. I've had some that have developed a pellicle but this has never had a negative impact on the flavour. If you mash low and long they should finish well below 1.010 even if they take some time.

If you want to go the whole hog you can collect champagne bottles and there are shops where you can buy plastic corks and wire cages. I just use my normal capper to push the corks in and I have heard that some people do it by hand.

High carbonation is to style and I have used up to 3 teaspoons (10 grams) of sugar per 750mL bottle but I would only go this high if using champagne bottles, they are designed to hold much higher pressure than beer bottles and doing in this with low quality glass could be dangerous. If bottling in normal beer bottles the high side of what you would normally do for beer will be fine.

This beer was traditionally made for seasonal workers who were known as saisonaires. The champagne bottles were collected from the rubbish of rich people and reused to bottle the beer for the working class.

It's a great style, easy to make and difficult to get wrong. You can always experiment and I have tasted a few versions that have been more highly hopped with US 'c' hops and they have been great too.

I hope this helps people looking at getting into the style. I am certainly no expert but have enjoyed my foray into saisons and these get a run in my brewery every summer when demand is high and it is handy to have something that doesn't need temperature control.

Cheers

Post #15 made 7 years ago
by Contrarian
The only thing I forgot to add above is that I find a fantastic way to use the yeast cakes is with Russian Imperial Stouts or Imperial Porters. They are a work horse yeast and when fermented closer to 20C don't throw as many esters while still delivering excellent attenuation. I currently have an imperial porter on the yeast cake from the Brett Saison in secondary. It has currently got from 1.096 to 1.016 which makes it about 10.5% and I think it is just about ready to bottle. Also made a RIS that I secondary fermented on cherries that came up a treat!

Post #16 made 7 years ago
by PistolPatch
Pete and Contrarian,

Thanks a heap for the above. Great to get such detail from brewers who I know I can trust :salute: :salute: :salute:.

Everything above is great so I'll just ask questions...

1. If the style is meant to be dry/highly-attenuated, would there be any problems in doing a step-mash?

2. Can you give any more info on how you prepped your yeast (whether dry or liquid)?

Thanks again :peace:,
PP

P.S. :lol: on the records management - tell me about it :smoke:.
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Post #17 made 7 years ago
by Rick
Thanks for the tips guys, the information in this thread saved me about 12 hours of "research". I'll likely still look around a bit for some nuance, but the main process is laid out perfectly.
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Saison receipe

Post #18 made 7 years ago
by Contrarian
In terms of yeast if it is a fresh vial into a normal sized batch of under 1.050 gravity I just pitch directly.

For older liquid yeast o make a 3L starter. Normally
I get this from making a bit extra when I brew and then when it gets to high krausen pitch the lot but I'm sure a dme starter would be fine as well.

Post #19 made 7 years ago
by Brew4me
My plan is to do a saison or Biere De Garde next. When I did the brew from Brewing Classic Styles I did a single step and as I stated above it tasted good and a worthy repeat - my yeast prep, don't yell - was nonexistent, I just tossed in the two packs of Belle Saison dry onto the 3 gallons of wort and gave it all a good swirl :blush: .

Stong's Modern Homebrew Recipes has saisons with single and multi-step mashes.

I have been looking around at options for the next recipe - a lot what I am finding uses a step mash.

For an interesting related article check out https://beerandbrewing.com/VMvilisAAKGj ... g-it-wrong

Pete
Last edited by Brew4me on 09 Jun 2016, 09:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #20 made 7 years ago
by PistolPatch
Thanks again Contrarian and B4me ;),

I've been using this (and another style), pretending I was a new brewer to the style (which I am) but has some brews under their belt (which I do), for practice in writing some other stuff. I must say, Saison is the worst style I have ever encountered for crappy/conflicting information. I reckon they could have a hundred sub-styles for Saison from some of the stuff I have read out there. (Rick, I did about 6 hours on it.) Some of the recipes I came across could have been APA's!

Yep, I know it is a broad style but this style certainly gets the Gold medal for most ambiguous style :smoke:. This is a style that, from what I have researched, has become completely disconnected from its original roots. I'm pretty sure that originally it was a low-alcohol beer but now, any ABV seems to be acceptable. Basically, whatever your preconceptions are of a Saison, I'm sure you'll find a recipe out there to suit :lol:.

I still need to consult with my co-brewer (who I'm teaching all-grain to in return for having to brew beer styles I have never brewed before - hold on, what's going on there? :think:) but I am favouring Gordon Strong's "Tom Fitzpatrick's Last Saison," for a few reasons but the main one is the fascinating mash schedule. I'm not prepared to write that mash schedule on this site as I think it would be a gross breach of copyright but if anyone can find a link where Gordon Strong himself has distributed it freely then please post a link to it here. It's not a step mash, it's something I've never seen before but would love to try.

Thanks again,
PP
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Post #21 made 7 years ago
by Brew4me
It is pretty crazy as a very very broad style. I personally like the pepper and funk taste on occasion. I look forward to hear your results knowing there will be a good lesson or two.
By the way, it sounds like your student has the upper hand on your brewing plans.
Pete
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Post #22 made 7 years ago
by mally
PP (& anybody else interested) - If you search using your favourite search engine for the words you have in quotes you will see a link to google books that shows you the recipe & schedule from Gordon Strong's book.
Must say I have never heard of a "round-trip continuously variable mash". Does sound interesting though!
G B
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Post #23 made 7 years ago
by joshua
Mally, the "round-trip continuously variable mash" is an Idea, to Mash in at 152F to start the Alpha Enzymes working, without disabling the Beta Enzymes, then letting the mash Cool to the best temperature for Beta enzymes to Work.

The Alpha Enzmes will break the Starch into groups of 3 sugars, and allow the Beta Enzymes to cut them into single Sugars.

This would be a bit better than Single Mashing at 151F/66C to 153F/67C.

Great, if you want a lighter Body, Higher ABV beer.

JMHO, YMMV
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Saison receipe

Post #24 made 7 years ago
by Contrarian
Saison is a very broad style and has been further bastardized by Brewers who have conniptions about the idea that you can actually make fantastic beer without a shed load of hops.

It seems that all you need to do to call something a saison is to use a saison yeast and that everything is pretty loose after that.

For me, I find that keeping it simple and letting the yeast do the talking is a refreshing change from hop driven beers. Same as a good hefe!

Post #25 made 7 years ago
by Rick
I do not like spiced beers in general, but a local small batch brewery (The Other Farm) has a brew that is called Saisonner. They take seasonal fruits and infuse them with the beer, with a light spicing to accompany the fruit.

I actually met the brewer at the LVBW competition I attended 2 yrs ago, as he had a table there ... told him how fond of the Apple version I was. Being anti-spiced beer, I hope he took it as the massive compliment it was. It was eloquently done, as nothing dominated the brew .. every aspect had great flavor separation (hops, malts, yeast, spice, fruit).

So there you have something that I would have originally labeled "bastardized", and now I will probably use the style as a base to achieve the same thing he did. Not sure if I should hate myself for this undertaking, heh.
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