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Crown Beer

Post #1 made 10 years ago
by hashie
Let me first preface this post by saying that I am not trying to clone, copy or otherwise mimic another beer, commercial or otherwise. I simply wish to discuss and experiment as to the merits of Crown Beer.

For a long time an Australian brewery, Carlton and United Brewery (CUB), has, in my opinion, been ripping punters off. They have done this by selling 2 different beers from the one fermenter. This is done by bottling the lower 2/3 (I really don't know the amounts, this is just a guess) of the fermenter and labelling it as Carlton Draught. The top or the "Crown" of the fermented beer is bottled and sold as "Crown Lager" at a premium price.

Now I don't drink either, it's my opinion that they are as bad as each other. But I wondered if there was any appreciable difference in the beer from top to bottom of a fermenter. To this end I bottled and kegged a beer this morning. For the sake of full disclosure I ferment in a 30 litre stainless steel connical fermenter with a rotating racking arm which draws from near the bottom of the fermenter. The first runnings ( is that an appropriate word? ) were bottled into 6 x 500ml stubbies, I then filled a keg and finshed by putting the "Crown Beer" into 2 x 500ml stubbies. In around a months time I will do a side by side of the top and bottom beers to see if there is any difference.

Has anybody had experience with this before?

What thoughts do you have on the outcome and why?

Cheers

Hashie
Last edited by hashie on 17 May 2014, 10:34, edited 1 time in total.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #3 made 10 years ago
by BobBrews
Interesting? Pee (equally) in both batches to try to clone them just for fun! :lol:
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

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Post #4 made 10 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there hashie and welcome to the forum :salute:,

Your question is a great one...

:lol: Just pulling hashie's leg! He's one of the four founding members :champ:. It take eight years to get any credit around this joint :P.

Hashie, do you think this is an urban myth? I've seen it before but often wonder if it is true. The hardest bit would be getting any of us middle-agers to volunteer for a taste test - lol!

But taste changes as age changes...

I think it is really important to recognise that our appreciation of taste changes with age, I could write a full article on this but it is just a fact.

Less 'tasty' beers might seem excellent to some young people's palates and some old people's palates. I certainly loved plain beers when I was younger. Yum! I still like many plain beers but some give me a headache and some do not.

Anyway, I think my point here is not to criticise plain beers. I like them and they are actually harder to brew than 'tasty' brews.

One Interesting Thing

Three or four years after I started all-graining, we had a bucks party and at the first pub we went to we had jugs of Fosters. Being an arrogant, sophisticated, beer aficionado at that stage :smoke:, I obviously assumed I would not like the beer. Maybe I wasn't as arrogant as I thought because I did actually stop, taste and think about the beer and it was excellent!

...

As I get older, the more I think a big problem we have is an expectation that beauty will hit us in the face, like walking into a tree, rather than us being willing to stand still in the forest and absorb the beauty.

...

That Fosters was in a jug off the tap and it was fantastic. I've never had one since as I have never seen it on tap here in Oz since.

Your Experiment

Dunno. We're talking stratification here and I am thinking that any stratification is easily disturbed in a small vessel. If your theory is correct, wouldn't they syphon off the crown first?.

And, man, what is a rotating racking arm? And, and, and, you have a conical fermentor? You are out of control hashie!

But, I'll also say that on the batch sizes that home bewers do, little inference can be made from a single batch. Anecdotes can certainly add up though.

My Thoughts

First thing you will need to do is set up a tasting panel and then triangle taste the beers. It's the only way of being able to find a difference.

And that is probably the first thing we should do. Set up a triangle test between Crown and Draught?

Between you and me though, I think this is an urban myth. Yes, Crown would cost as much to produce as anything else but I think the batches would be brewed separately. Too bloody hard and inconvenient to do otherwise.

The cost of making non-hoppy beers is more in the taxes than in the ingredients.

...

Wow! In writing all that hashie, I am now doubting the validity of your thread - lol! What are your thoughts now?

Do you still think mally is BobBrew's love grand-child?

:o
PP :lol:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 18 May 2014, 01:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #5 made 10 years ago
by JackRussel
Being a newbie, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post in this section.

Interesting experiment. I have a feeling that there will be little to no discernible difference. There is a chance that the "Crown" would have a higher ABV. Maybe a hydrometer comparison of the two would be a good idea?
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Post #6 made 10 years ago
by BobBrews
Do you still think mally is BobBrew's love grand-child?
:o
The last time I was in the UK was 1966 or 67? Anyway, he is not good looking enough!!! :lol: !

(I don't know really? I haven't seen mally but "NO ONE" is as good looking as me!!!!) But they may be a better brewer! :nup:
Last edited by BobBrews on 18 May 2014, 05:47, edited 1 time in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #7 made 10 years ago
by hashie
No news yet, still needs another 10 days or so in the bottle.
PP, I think your right, there wont be much difference, if any given the scale of the experiment.

What I do expect is for the crown beer to be brighter as any residual yeast and sediment will have been flushed into the first bottles. Will this make it taste different? Time will tell.

Bob, How many love children do you have? You did visit Australia in your travels no?
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #8 made 10 years ago
by BobBrews
hashie,
Bob, How many love children do you have? You did visit Australia in your travels no?
I was in the land down under for a week back in 1968 or 9? I had a good time. I refuse to go into great detail to protect the innocent. The hotel the Army assigned me was near Kings Cross. I spent most of my time in the Kings Cross district in Sydney. Your safe. :lol:
Colloquially known as The Cross, the area is known as Sydney's red-light district, and is reputed to be home to organized crime groups. Once known for its music halls and grand theaters, it was rapidly transformed after World War II by the influx of troops returning and visiting from the nearby Garden Island naval base. Today, it is dominated by bars, restaurants (particularly cafes), nightclubs and strip clubs.
Last edited by BobBrews on 23 May 2014, 04:18, edited 1 time in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #9 made 10 years ago
by Setsumi
hashie
I though about this numerous times. My brew length is 45L. I bottle and keg from the same batch. First 18L go in 2 9L kegs directly from the fermentor but I draw from near the top with a siphon rest into a bottle bucket. I found on fuller (larger?) beers that the 2 kegs taste differently to the point that I started to fill 1 keg bottle the usual batch and fill the second keg. Here my friends definitely agree that the kegs taste differently. BUT I have to say that there may be other variables as well to consider like the amount of priming sugar into the different kegs (you know it is usually a rush to get the stuff done), temperature differences between kegs in storage (not all have temp control)as well as in pours and even the level of beer in kegs at pours.
Setsumi

Post #10 made 10 years ago
by hashie
Thanks for your input Setsumi. I am doing this experiment in bottles because I think it will give a more accurate (if any?!?) result.
I keg into 19 litre kegs and find the beer continues to change/mature as it is drunk, or from top to bottom. I've considered this for some time and think there may even be a relationship between the atomic weights of the various flavours and why kegs drink differently, from top to bottom (or should that be from bottom to top?). For example, I get the biggest hit of hops from the first few beers of any given keg, beyond that the hop flavours tend to even out. Is this because the atomic weight of hop flavour/oil is greater than that of the malts?
Anyway I've digressed enough, I think by bottling the first and last from the fermenter into same size and styled bottles and opening and pouring those bottles at the same time will give the best chance at a discernible difference.

Or maybe I just over think things and I should just relax and have a home brew :)
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #11 made 9 years ago
by DaveDoran
Hashie,

Hope this experiment turns up something but i have some information that may influence. Recently did a brew course and visited cub and spoke to cub employees past and present. CUB brewhouse is set up to brew 24x7. Exact same set up split down the middle of a large room but effectively 2 times everything (2 x very large mashs, lauter, kettles, whirlpools etc). From this they both produce an identical wort stream. From there it is sent to different fermenters and then fermented out using the assigned yeasts (carlton's draft yeast goes back to carlsberg yeast and is pretty close to the original). Crown is the same wort as carton, vb, tooheys, fosters. Its aged longer though.
Another piece of trivia. The only fosters tap left in Straya is in the CUB brewery.

Post #12 made 8 years ago
by DanIAm
PistolPatch wrote:Dunno. We're talking stratification here and I am thinking that any stratification is easily disturbed in a small vessel. If your theory is correct, wouldn't they syphon off the crown first?.
hashie wrote:Thanks for your input Setsumi. I am doing this experiment in bottles because I think it will give a more accurate (if any?!?) result.
I keg into 19 litre kegs and find the beer continues to change/mature as it is drunk, or from top to bottom. I've considered this for some time and think there may even be a relationship between the atomic weights of the various flavours and why kegs drink differently, from top to bottom (or should that be from bottom to top?). For example, I get the biggest hit of hops from the first few beers of any given keg, beyond that the hop flavours tend to even out. Is this because the atomic weight of hop flavour/oil is greater than that of the malts?
I think the stratification is definitely there. I've read this thread a few times and I've kept coming back to it and musing. The first beer that I drank and sat up and took notice (after years of drinking a few after work every day of big brewery swill) was the Chimay Grand Reserve - and the thing that made me take notice was the stratification and it changed my understanding, and appreciation of beer forever.

One 750ml bottle (of ambrosia) and it changed in taste from the top to the bottom - and this is a small vessel and "disturbed" in transport and handling from the bar to myself (they gave me the bottle and a glass).

As Hashie observed, hops do change from the first day or two of drinking to the rest of the brew in kegs. Probably less noticeable in swill at bars because of the use of isohop/tetrahops instead of hops which give more consistency.

Beer is complex, a change in mashing temperature of 64 degrees vs 67 gives multiple different fermentable sugars, we have unfermentable sugars, possibly more alcohols than just ethanol etc. If left to stand, most of it won't be homogenous but stratify, probably not enough of some things even in a given stratification to even notice. But while we all work in Alpha acids for hops (for the bitterness), they have Beta acids. Hop oils include Humulone, Adhumulone, Cohumulone etc and hops at a brewery or chemist level are more complex than we think of as homebrewers (alpha acid).
Last edited by DanIAm on 22 Dec 2015, 01:46, edited 1 time in total.

Post #13 made 8 years ago
by Lumpy5oh
Dan I don't think it was stratification you were experiencing with that Chimay. Beer can change drastically as it warms and oxidizes. The simple things act of pouring the beer into a glass would have mixed any stratification away.
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Post #14 made 8 years ago
by DanIAm
50% of one, 50% of the other Lumpy.

A keg of beer isn't homogenised, kegs (universally?) draw from the bottom and in 2 days the hops have changed.

But back to the stratification of a bottle of chimay. Put into a bottle of water, vinegar and oil and observe the stratification. Shake it (create a salad dressing)and see how long it takes to stratify again - pouring a beer isn't as radical as shaking. So depending on if you are sipping on $20 liquid or skulling a small beer after a hard days yakka, it only takes a few minutes for the bulk of things to sink or rise relatative to their density.

But equally as you observed, warming and oxidation have an impact.

I would like a government grant to do some extensive Chimay testing, so without the results, it's just opionion, whereas some science would be handy.
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