My first post after a dozen biab's! I'm convinced biab is a great technique and I'm determined not to give up.
my last brew readings where:
pre-boil target 1049, achieved 1040
post-boil target 1060, achieved 1044.
final gravity always hits the mark...about 1010-12.
grain bill of 6kg pale malt and .5 kg crystal 40l.
I strike at 67 and mash around 64-65 for an hour with 3-4 stirs of the mash.
my previous brew had .5 kg less pale malt and similar gravity readings occurred...i thought a little extra pale malt would generate more sugars and all would be well...hhmmm not the case.
my kit is a 50l stainless steel old keg fired by a 3 ring burner.
Beersmith calc's my volumes...I started with 39.5l water
Can anyone suggest what I may be doing wrong.
many thanks
mcgoo
Post #2 made 13 years ago
Hi mcgoo
Take my response with a grain of salt cause i have never bothered to check my efficiency, but your set up is similar to mine with the exception that i have a 4 ring burner.
Anyway i only use 32 litres of water which could be something, i mash for 90 mins, i dont bother to mash out and boil for 60 mins and my final volume is spot on everytime.
Perhaps at nearly 40 litres its too thin?
Hope theres something there that helps
Also final volume is 19litres
Take my response with a grain of salt cause i have never bothered to check my efficiency, but your set up is similar to mine with the exception that i have a 4 ring burner.
Anyway i only use 32 litres of water which could be something, i mash for 90 mins, i dont bother to mash out and boil for 60 mins and my final volume is spot on everytime.
Perhaps at nearly 40 litres its too thin?
Hope theres something there that helps
Also final volume is 19litres
Post #3 made 13 years ago
First thing to check mcgoo is you hydrometer calibration. Not likely out that much but "first things first"
AWOL
Post #4 made 13 years ago
Welcome to the forum mcgoo 
,
You've come to the right place to get this problem sorted. Firstly, increase your mash time to 90 minutes and do a mash-out if possible. This will be a part of your problem but not all of it. The other cause/s could be a number of things.
Firstly, can you please post your .bsm file here so we can have a look at how you have BeerSmith set-up. That will also tell us what volumes you are aiming for.
Can you also tell us what volumes you achieved? Unfortunately Beersmith doesn't allow you to record too many valuable actual figures. We preferably would like to know your Volume into Fermentor and how much kettle trub you scored. Until we know this, we won't really know if you have an efficiency problem or just an evaporation rate problem. Basically what I'm asking here is, "Are your actual volumes matching what you have set up in your equipment profile?"
After that, have a look through each of the points in this post. See if any of those ring a bell.
Cheers,
PP
,You've come to the right place to get this problem sorted. Firstly, increase your mash time to 90 minutes and do a mash-out if possible. This will be a part of your problem but not all of it. The other cause/s could be a number of things.
Firstly, can you please post your .bsm file here so we can have a look at how you have BeerSmith set-up. That will also tell us what volumes you are aiming for.
Can you also tell us what volumes you achieved? Unfortunately Beersmith doesn't allow you to record too many valuable actual figures. We preferably would like to know your Volume into Fermentor and how much kettle trub you scored. Until we know this, we won't really know if you have an efficiency problem or just an evaporation rate problem. Basically what I'm asking here is, "Are your actual volumes matching what you have set up in your equipment profile?"
After that, have a look through each of the points in this post. See if any of those ring a bell.
Cheers,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 29 Apr 2013, 22:54, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #5 made 13 years ago
Thanks PP,
After boil I put 23L into the fermenter and had 6L left as my kettle spout is up high.
I haven't measured how much I loose from grain absorption or evaporation but between those 2 items it must be 10L...given I started with 39.5L.
I've exported the recipe from beersmith and it's attached. There are so many .bsmx files...i hope I selected the right one.
I would appreciate any further feedback you have.
regards
mcgooo
After boil I put 23L into the fermenter and had 6L left as my kettle spout is up high.
I haven't measured how much I loose from grain absorption or evaporation but between those 2 items it must be 10L...given I started with 39.5L.
I've exported the recipe from beersmith and it's attached. There are so many .bsmx files...i hope I selected the right one.
I would appreciate any further feedback you have.
regards
mcgooo
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Post #6 made 13 years ago
Firstly mcgoo, my apologies. I probably should have given some sort of direction on how to post a file here as I'm sure there are several new brewers/members here that might not know how to do that. Lucky for me you knew what to do 
.
Anyway, thanks for posting the .bsm file as that makes it a lot easier for me to see what is going on. I think we now have the problem solved. In my last post here I mentioned about mashing for 90 minutes and doing a mash-out. I'm assuming you read that and will do that on your next brew as that is very important. There's almost 50 posts in this thread that prove this.
The next main cause of your problem though is in your equipment profile set-up. Unfortunately the basic design of commercial programs and the poor terminology used results in a very non-intuitive interface that is very easy to go wrong with.
For example, in your equipment profile, even though you have 70% written under 'Brewhouse Efficiency', your 'Mash Efficiency' is actually set at 88% which is way too high for a 1.060 beer. Here's a pic of your equipment set-up...In the next pic you will see the 88% mash efficiency...This is the major cause of your problem.
It's going to take a few posts to get this sorted for you as there are several frustrating areas we need to deal with unfortunately.
I'm not too sure which area to start with but should be able to give you something to get started on within the next 24 hours.
PP
.Anyway, thanks for posting the .bsm file as that makes it a lot easier for me to see what is going on. I think we now have the problem solved. In my last post here I mentioned about mashing for 90 minutes and doing a mash-out. I'm assuming you read that and will do that on your next brew as that is very important. There's almost 50 posts in this thread that prove this.
The next main cause of your problem though is in your equipment profile set-up. Unfortunately the basic design of commercial programs and the poor terminology used results in a very non-intuitive interface that is very easy to go wrong with.
For example, in your equipment profile, even though you have 70% written under 'Brewhouse Efficiency', your 'Mash Efficiency' is actually set at 88% which is way too high for a 1.060 beer. Here's a pic of your equipment set-up...In the next pic you will see the 88% mash efficiency...This is the major cause of your problem.
It's going to take a few posts to get this sorted for you as there are several frustrating areas we need to deal with unfortunately.
I'm not too sure which area to start with but should be able to give you something to get started on within the next 24 hours.
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 30 Apr 2013, 21:54, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #7 made 13 years ago
mcgoo, I have just done a large edit of the post above so it is hopefully a little more helpful now. As I mentioned in the last paragraph, there is still a lot of ground we still have to cover though.
Before we get onto those, how did you go with the post on common casues for a low efficiency reading? Did anything there jump out at you?
Cheers,
PP
Before we get onto those, how did you go with the post on common casues for a low efficiency reading? Did anything there jump out at you?
Cheers,
PP
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Post #8 made 13 years ago
Sorry to Hi-Jack your thread Mcgoo/PP but....
Having never used nor seen Beersmith, I noticed in the pic, the slider bars for BJCP guideline styles.
Has this been considered for the BIABacus?
I know it seems a bit gimmicky, but having seen it for the first time my thoughts were, that's useful.
Having never used nor seen Beersmith, I noticed in the pic, the slider bars for BJCP guideline styles.
Has this been considered for the BIABacus?
I know it seems a bit gimmicky, but having seen it for the first time my thoughts were, that's useful.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #9 made 13 years ago
Thanks PP,
I don't understand what brewhouse and mash efficiency really mean or their overall affect or what will happen if i adjust up or down.
I've made comment on the 9 items below.
2. Grain bill incorrectly weighed. NOT CHECKED...UNLIKELY
3. Thermometer not calibrated at mash temperatures. (This post shows how unreliable a single thermometer is.) DOUBLE CHECKED AND OK
4. Hydrometer not calibrated at original gravity. CHECKED OK
5. Bag is too tight and restricts liquor flow. STANDARD BAG FROM MY BREWSHOP TWOC
6. pH of mash has not been adjusted. DEFINITELY HAVEN'T CHECKED
7. Estimated mash efficiency did not reflect the gravity of the brew. (A high gravity beer will have a lower mash efficiency than a low gravity beer. NOTE CAREFULLY: This point can be ignored if you are using the BIABacus as the BIABacus adjusts for gravity.)
8. The brewer is measuring 'efficiency into fermenter' rather than 'efficiency into the kettle.' The first figure is often far lower than the second. DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS COMMENT
9. The grain used has lower extract potential or higher moisture content than the specifications being used for the calculations. NEARLY ALL BREWS ARE PRODUCING LOW GRAVS SO DOUBT THIS ONE.
Thanks for your help.
Look forward to your next tip.
mcgooooooo
I don't understand what brewhouse and mash efficiency really mean or their overall affect or what will happen if i adjust up or down.
I've made comment on the 9 items below.
2. Grain bill incorrectly weighed. NOT CHECKED...UNLIKELY
3. Thermometer not calibrated at mash temperatures. (This post shows how unreliable a single thermometer is.) DOUBLE CHECKED AND OK
4. Hydrometer not calibrated at original gravity. CHECKED OK
5. Bag is too tight and restricts liquor flow. STANDARD BAG FROM MY BREWSHOP TWOC
6. pH of mash has not been adjusted. DEFINITELY HAVEN'T CHECKED
7. Estimated mash efficiency did not reflect the gravity of the brew. (A high gravity beer will have a lower mash efficiency than a low gravity beer. NOTE CAREFULLY: This point can be ignored if you are using the BIABacus as the BIABacus adjusts for gravity.)
8. The brewer is measuring 'efficiency into fermenter' rather than 'efficiency into the kettle.' The first figure is often far lower than the second. DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS COMMENT
9. The grain used has lower extract potential or higher moisture content than the specifications being used for the calculations. NEARLY ALL BREWS ARE PRODUCING LOW GRAVS SO DOUBT THIS ONE.
Thanks for your help.
Look forward to your next tip.
mcgooooooo
Post #10 made 13 years ago
here's something for your Mcgoo.
I usually do double batches and have a big 114L pot. My standard batch is around 65L of water, 10kg of grain. The diameter of the pot it 560mm or just over half a metre wide. Gravity readings just shit me, they never seem to be accurate, they never match what i am meant to get and did i mention they really shit me.
I'd kinda given up on taking any readings until right near the end of the brew, but on my last brew I pulled the bag and did a gravity reading. At the top of the pot the reading was 1015, when i pulled a sample from the tap at the bottom of the pot it was 1060. I double checked both with a hydrometer and refractor and it was as accurate as a 15 buck hydrometer and a $32 buck refractor can be. But that is a massive difference.
The thing im starting to learn with biab, is because we have so much water to grain there is a lot of stratification that occours, even in a 60 minute mash... this really screws up your readings. Sugar is much heavier than water and will sink to the bottom of the pot and completly screw your readings unless you stir everything up again.
So from here on in...no readings.. if biabacus says its 1050, it will be 1050 and if the universe decides differently then so be it.
There endeth the rant!
I usually do double batches and have a big 114L pot. My standard batch is around 65L of water, 10kg of grain. The diameter of the pot it 560mm or just over half a metre wide. Gravity readings just shit me, they never seem to be accurate, they never match what i am meant to get and did i mention they really shit me.
I'd kinda given up on taking any readings until right near the end of the brew, but on my last brew I pulled the bag and did a gravity reading. At the top of the pot the reading was 1015, when i pulled a sample from the tap at the bottom of the pot it was 1060. I double checked both with a hydrometer and refractor and it was as accurate as a 15 buck hydrometer and a $32 buck refractor can be. But that is a massive difference.
The thing im starting to learn with biab, is because we have so much water to grain there is a lot of stratification that occours, even in a 60 minute mash... this really screws up your readings. Sugar is much heavier than water and will sink to the bottom of the pot and completly screw your readings unless you stir everything up again.
So from here on in...no readings.. if biabacus says its 1050, it will be 1050 and if the universe decides differently then so be it.
There endeth the rant!
Post #11 made 13 years ago
Will do a separate post for you shortly mcgoo. Before that, just quickly...
From memory, Aces has even given his brew a reasonable stir and still picked up stratification
. Definitely something I am going to check out on next brew. Best thread for any more comments on this factor is mally's thread here.
There was something similar in an earlier version of the BIABacus but it relied on macros which meant they worked on some computers but not on others. The design was actually pretty cool. If BIABacus ever goes non-spreadsheet, that would be something that would be included.mally wrote:Having never used nor seen Beersmith, I noticed in the pic, the slider bars for BJCP guideline styles.
Has this been considered for the BIABacus?
I know it seems a bit gimmicky, but having seen it for the first time my thoughts were, that's useful.
And, that is a good rant Stu.Aces high wrote:here's something for your Mcgoo.
...Gravity readings just shit me, they never seem to be accurate, they never match what i am meant to get and did i mention they really shit me...
Sugar is much heavier than water and will sink to the bottom of the pot and completly screw your readings unless you stir everything up again... There endeth the rant!
From memory, Aces has even given his brew a reasonable stir and still picked up stratification
. Definitely something I am going to check out on next brew. Best thread for any more comments on this factor is mally's thread here.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 02 May 2013, 17:50, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #12 made 13 years ago
Back to you mcgoo 
,
Didn't realise you were from Perth and must be living close by
. Sorry to miss your first post back in August when you asked to see someone do a BIAB 
. Anyway, I'm sure we'll get to have a few beers soon.
Also, if I fail to explain things well in this thread, we can always have a chat on the phone and get things sorted.
Nice work on answering all those 9 points. Just going through them...
3 and 4. Only way to really check a thermometer/hydro at mash temp or a certain gravity is to have several of them. I have lots here if you want to check yours at some stage.
5. Didn't know Roy was selling bags! I will have to check them out. However, the bag must suit the kettle size. A small bag that restricts the easy wash of water through the grain can cause problems.
6. I don't think this is going to be a major factor here in Perth. It does make a bit of a difference and may be a contributing factor but not enough to worry about atm.
7 and 8. I am going to try and address these point tonight though it will require a small book. I am going to do this as a series of posts so as I can try and put it into bite-size sections.
The first post I'll write below will be a very quick answer to your original problem. It will also form the base for the subsequent posts. Let's see how we go.
,Didn't realise you were from Perth and must be living close by
. Sorry to miss your first post back in August when you asked to see someone do a BIAB . Anyway, I'm sure we'll get to have a few beers soon.Also, if I fail to explain things well in this thread, we can always have a chat on the phone and get things sorted.
Nice work on answering all those 9 points
. Just going through them...3 and 4. Only way to really check a thermometer/hydro at mash temp or a certain gravity is to have several of them. I have lots here if you want to check yours at some stage
.5. Didn't know Roy was selling bags! I will have to check them out
. However, the bag must suit the kettle size. A small bag that restricts the easy wash of water through the grain can cause problems.6. I don't think this is going to be a major factor here in Perth. It does make a bit of a difference and may be a contributing factor but not enough to worry about atm.
7 and 8. I am going to try and address these point tonight though it will require a small book. I am going to do this as a series of posts so as I can try and put it into bite-size sections.
The first post I'll write below will be a very quick answer to your original problem. It will also form the base for the subsequent posts. Let's see how we go
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Post #13 made 13 years ago
[center]A Quick Answer to Your Problem*[/center]
The following answer you will not find anywhere else but it should be a standard, minimum answer on all brewing forums especially on brewing software forums...
[Note, in the answer below, I will use BeerSmith terminology. Fast to learn, unambiguous terminology that is encouraged on this site can be found here.]
In the next post, we'll look at understanding why high gravity beers are less efficient than low gravity beers.
[*Remember that this is only a part-answer to your problem mcgoo. The above numbers assume on your future brews you will be doing a 90 minute mash and a mash-out.]
The following answer you will not find anywhere else but it should be a standard, minimum answer on all brewing forums especially on brewing software forums...
[Note, in the answer below, I will use BeerSmith terminology. Fast to learn, unambiguous terminology that is encouraged on this site can be found here.]
As I mentioned above, you won't find an answer like this anywhere else but it is the basics of any efficiency question. I've actually tailored your answer to what I know of your equipment as well. How cool is that?mcgoo, I have had a look at your equipment profile. High gravity beers give you lower efficiency than low gravity beers. A 1.060 beer is above average gravity so lower your brewhouse efficiency to 61.5%. For a 1.050 beer you can increase it to 65%. For a 1.040 beer you can change it to 68%.
In the next post, we'll look at understanding why high gravity beers are less efficient than low gravity beers.
[*Remember that this is only a part-answer to your problem mcgoo. The above numbers assume on your future brews you will be doing a 90 minute mash and a mash-out.]
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Post #14 made 13 years ago
[center]Why are High Gravity Beers Less 'Efficient' than Low Gravity Beers?[/center]
Imagine that you work on an oil rig and you wear a pair of jeans. At the end of the day, those jeans will be full of oil. Now go and wash them in the washing machine on a hot cycle. They'll come out pretty clean right?
Now imagine that you wait for three days before you do a wash and then you put three pairs of oily jeans in the one wash. Will those jeans come out as clean as the pair you washed on their own?
No.
It's exactly the same with a brew. The more grain you put into a brew, the less well it can get washed. It's as simple as that.
This is the first problem with existing brewing software.
Existing brewing software assumes that every brew you do will have the same 'efficiency' - no matter how many pairs of jeans you throw in the wash, they will all some out clean. In fact, all existing software depends on not only this 'efficiency' not varying but also on you, the brewer, actually understanding what 'efficiency' is.
Many very experienced brewers do not fully understand what efficiency is.
So, what we have here in existing brewing software is the equivalent of you driving into a fuel station and asking them, "How much fuel do I need to go 100 kms?" They might tell you 7.5 litres but that is not an answer, they haven't asked the critical questions...
Are you driving uphill or downhill? In city or highway traffic? What speed will you be travelling at? Are you really travelling in this old bomb?"
This is just one major problem the BIABacus solves.
Without you even knowing it, the BIABacus asks and answers these questions for you. Your 'efficiency', and several other things, are auto-calculated. If you want to 'fine-tune' the numbers to your 'engine', the BIABacus allows this also.
...
In the next post, we'll look at what this word 'efficiency' might mean.
Imagine that you work on an oil rig and you wear a pair of jeans. At the end of the day, those jeans will be full of oil. Now go and wash them in the washing machine on a hot cycle. They'll come out pretty clean right?
Now imagine that you wait for three days before you do a wash and then you put three pairs of oily jeans in the one wash. Will those jeans come out as clean as the pair you washed on their own?
No.
It's exactly the same with a brew. The more grain you put into a brew, the less well it can get washed. It's as simple as that.
This is the first problem with existing brewing software.
Existing brewing software assumes that every brew you do will have the same 'efficiency' - no matter how many pairs of jeans you throw in the wash, they will all some out clean. In fact, all existing software depends on not only this 'efficiency' not varying but also on you, the brewer, actually understanding what 'efficiency' is.
Many very experienced brewers do not fully understand what efficiency is.
So, what we have here in existing brewing software is the equivalent of you driving into a fuel station and asking them, "How much fuel do I need to go 100 kms?" They might tell you 7.5 litres but that is not an answer, they haven't asked the critical questions...
Are you driving uphill or downhill? In city or highway traffic? What speed will you be travelling at? Are you really travelling in this old bomb?"
This is just one major problem the BIABacus solves.
Without you even knowing it, the BIABacus asks and answers these questions for you. Your 'efficiency', and several other things, are auto-calculated. If you want to 'fine-tune' the numbers to your 'engine', the BIABacus allows this also.
...
In the next post, we'll look at what this word 'efficiency' might mean.
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Post #15 made 13 years ago
[center]What is Efficiency Really?[/center]
The term, 'efficiency', is one of the most commonly used in all-grain home-brewing and is almost completely useless and meaningless due to some basic design and terminology errors that were made in existing brewing software from day one. I know first hand that these were not intentional but I also know first hand that there is no rush to fix these errors or even an awareness of just how much damage these designs and terminology have caused and are still causing.
Anyway...
The concept of 'efficiency' is pretty simple. I have explained it on this site before using facts and figures but these facts and figures can detract us from the main point. Let me try a different way...
'Efficiency,' in it's Purest Form
You remember mcgoo how we talked about one pair of jeans in the wash? Well now I want you to switch your mind from thinking about oily jeans to jeans soaked in sugar. Your goal is to leach as much sugar out of those jeans into a given amount of water as possible.
What happens in the laboratory is they put those 'jeans' into more water than we will, at perfect temperatures, agitate them constantly etc, etc. In other words, they wash those jeans in the almost perfect washing machine.
In our situation, we wash more jeans in less water in less than ideal conditions. So we might only be 70-90% efficient as the laboiratory on a 'normal' brew.
All the above refers to EIK.
All that is written above refers to EIK. EIK refers to 'Efficiency into the Kettle." It can also be expressed in many other ways but they all give the same, 'number'.
In other words, EIK is the purest form of efficiency but programs like BeerSmith coined a new term, 'brewhouse efficiency,' that has totally bastardised the original meaning.
You are probably seeing now that the further we move on, the harder the posts get. The next posts that will happen here will be explaining how the best of terminology has been bastardised and how BIABrewer has attempted to fix it.
Now is probably a good time for a big pause in this thread. There is a lot to take in above and a lot more you will have to take in below.
Please excuse any spelling errors etc. Drunk and tired now!
PP
The term, 'efficiency', is one of the most commonly used in all-grain home-brewing and is almost completely useless and meaningless due to some basic design and terminology errors that were made in existing brewing software from day one. I know first hand that these were not intentional but I also know first hand that there is no rush to fix these errors or even an awareness of just how much damage these designs and terminology have caused and are still causing.
Anyway...
The concept of 'efficiency' is pretty simple. I have explained it on this site before using facts and figures but these facts and figures can detract us from the main point. Let me try a different way...
'Efficiency,' in it's Purest Form
You remember mcgoo how we talked about one pair of jeans in the wash? Well now I want you to switch your mind from thinking about oily jeans to jeans soaked in sugar. Your goal is to leach as much sugar out of those jeans into a given amount of water as possible.
What happens in the laboratory is they put those 'jeans' into more water than we will, at perfect temperatures, agitate them constantly etc, etc. In other words, they wash those jeans in the almost perfect washing machine.
In our situation, we wash more jeans in less water in less than ideal conditions. So we might only be 70-90% efficient as the laboiratory on a 'normal' brew.
All the above refers to EIK.
All that is written above refers to EIK. EIK refers to 'Efficiency into the Kettle." It can also be expressed in many other ways but they all give the same, 'number'.
In other words, EIK is the purest form of efficiency but programs like BeerSmith coined a new term, 'brewhouse efficiency,' that has totally bastardised the original meaning.
You are probably seeing now that the further we move on, the harder the posts get. The next posts that will happen here will be explaining how the best of terminology has been bastardised and how BIABrewer has attempted to fix it.
Now is probably a good time for a big pause in this thread. There is a lot to take in above and a lot more you will have to take in below.
Please excuse any spelling errors etc. Drunk and tired now!
PP
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