Morning all.
I'm planning some small 10 litre batches using a 20 litre stainless burco tea urn as my boiler.
If I do my hop additions in a bag so I can lift them out at the end of the boil then chill with my dip cooler is there any reason why I should not just add yeast and do the primary fermentation in the boiler?
I'd probably cover the top of the boiler with cling film (sarin wrap?) It would keep the nasties out but the co2 seems to find an escape route. The boiler/fermenter would be in a temperature controlled fridge, that I had pre-cleaned with Star San.
Would doing this have any negative impact on the beers final flavour or clarity?
Many Thanks. Aamcle
Post #2 made 12 years ago
Good Day, You will need to Airate to wort before you pitch the yeast!
Only problem of fementing in the kettle is, tying up the kettle for 2-4 weeks.
The flavor of the Trub depends on the beer you want to make...........
Only problem of fementing in the kettle is, tying up the kettle for 2-4 weeks.
The flavor of the Trub depends on the beer you want to make...........
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
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Post #3 made 12 years ago
Aamcle, I do this all the time. PP doesn't recommend it for beginners. It's a rare practice and few have tried it. I shouldn't really comment as this is the only way I have ever done it and I can't compare with doing it any other way. I haven't entered any competitions so I can't say I made any award winning beers like this either.
There is a discussion on this thread which you probably read: http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1914
You may not get all the answers you need as it is a fringe area thing. So you may have to try it both ways and see for yourself.
If you do try it use the lid and not ceran wrap/cling film. The CO2 will "burp the lid"
I've done close to 20 batches this way now without one infection.
There is a discussion on this thread which you probably read: http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1914
You may not get all the answers you need as it is a fringe area thing. So you may have to try it both ways and see for yourself.
If you do try it use the lid and not ceran wrap/cling film. The CO2 will "burp the lid"
I've done close to 20 batches this way now without one infection.
Last edited by GuingesRock on 27 Mar 2013, 20:05, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges
Re: Ferment in boiler? - advice please
Post #4 made 12 years ago
Now if I had a conical boiler to drop the trub............
Aamcle
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
Aamcle
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
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- Over 20 Brews From Great Britain
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Post #5 made 12 years ago
ps, I leave the leaf hops in for the ferment and there is a bazooka screen to keep them out of the kegs.
It makes entering figures into BIABacus easier as Kettle to Fermenter loss becomes zero (one less volume to measure)
Traditional brewing 3 vessel plus fermentor = 4 vessel.
BIAB this way = 1 vessel
Forgot to say I sanitise the lid by heating it in the oven. The rest gets sanitised by the boil.
It makes entering figures into BIABacus easier as Kettle to Fermenter loss becomes zero (one less volume to measure)
Traditional brewing 3 vessel plus fermentor = 4 vessel.
BIAB this way = 1 vessel
Forgot to say I sanitise the lid by heating it in the oven. The rest gets sanitised by the boil.
Guinges
Post #6 made 12 years ago
Lots of issues to think of here I think. Here's a few off the top of my head...
1. What style are you brewing? - A lager or pilsner? An APA/IPA? A wheat beer? A stout?
That's definitely the first question.
2. Who's going to be drinking it? - Fermenting in the kettle is going to lose you one 'ideal' transfer. By 'ideal' transfer, I mean a transfer that gets rid of crap without causing any danger. Racking from the kettle to fermentor and then pitching yeast is an ideal transfer. Transferring from primary to secondary is not an ideal transfer as there is a danger involved.
Why that whole paragraph above? Because I am talking about flavour/clarity. So, go back to Q1
.
3. What is your kettle made up of? - Does your kettle have a tap on it? Does it have a sight gauge? Does it have a dial thermometer?
Any attachments to your kettle increase the chance of infection over time unless you completely pull apart, clean and sterilise these attachments. Fermenting in your kettle will increase the likelihood of you experiencing an infection problem.
...
Personally, if I had no attachments on my kettle, I'd be happy to give this a try on say an APA/IPA/Schwartzbier that I was just going to drink myself.
PP
P.S. You talked about a conical boiler etc aamcle. I like the way you are thinking and have been there before. I gave up on that but, on reflection, I was probably thinking on this from a gas-fired perspective as back in those days, electric BIAB's were unusual.
Maybe I'm missing something obvious but a conical electric BIAB could be interesting. Cleanliness would be the only remaining issue I think
.
1. What style are you brewing? - A lager or pilsner? An APA/IPA? A wheat beer? A stout?
That's definitely the first question.
2. Who's going to be drinking it? - Fermenting in the kettle is going to lose you one 'ideal' transfer. By 'ideal' transfer, I mean a transfer that gets rid of crap without causing any danger. Racking from the kettle to fermentor and then pitching yeast is an ideal transfer. Transferring from primary to secondary is not an ideal transfer as there is a danger involved.
Why that whole paragraph above? Because I am talking about flavour/clarity. So, go back to Q1
.3. What is your kettle made up of? - Does your kettle have a tap on it? Does it have a sight gauge? Does it have a dial thermometer?
Any attachments to your kettle increase the chance of infection over time unless you completely pull apart, clean and sterilise these attachments. Fermenting in your kettle will increase the likelihood of you experiencing an infection problem.
...
Personally, if I had no attachments on my kettle, I'd be happy to give this a try on say an APA/IPA/Schwartzbier that I was just going to drink myself.
PP
P.S. You talked about a conical boiler etc aamcle. I like the way you are thinking and have been there before. I gave up on that but, on reflection, I was probably thinking on this from a gas-fired perspective as back in those days, electric BIAB's were unusual.
Maybe I'm missing something obvious but a conical electric BIAB could be interesting. Cleanliness would be the only remaining issue I think
.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 27 Mar 2013, 21:01, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #7 made 12 years ago
I believe there is less chance of infection with the tap PP, because the whole thing is at 100C for at least an hour during the boil. Any yeast and bacteria hiding in the ball valve would, I believe, be killed. I might be wrong though. The same, I believe, applies to other attachments.
(Thinking about it...it's more like 25 batches now that I've done without infection, touch wood. I haven't taken the ball valve apart yet to clean it.)
(Thinking about it...it's more like 25 batches now that I've done without infection, touch wood. I haven't taken the ball valve apart yet to clean it.)
Last edited by GuingesRock on 27 Mar 2013, 21:12, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges
Post #8 made 12 years ago
I thought of using a conical before, as a fermenting and serving vessel combined. Some of those you can pressurise up to about 5 PSI.PistolPatch wrote: Maybe I'm missing something obvious but a conical electric BIAB could be interesting.
I was thinking that once fermentation was complete, the conical could be hooked to a CO2 tank at 5 psi and the beer served from there. Would save a lot of fussing with kegs/bottles and stuff.
Now incorporating aamcle’s idea, and fixing an element into the conical, then a complete one vessel system for mashing, boiling, fermenting and serving might be possible. It would a bit like the “beer machine” BUT! It would be all-grain! Full batch! and mashing/boiling would be done within the machine rather than on the stovetop, and no bottling required. Also it would not need sanitising like the beer machine does, as the boiling would take care of all that.
As PP says, it wouldn’t be any good for fancy beers, but for home consumption of real ale style beers that are drunk fresh, it might work.
Last edited by GuingesRock on 28 Mar 2013, 00:26, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges
Nostril Test
Post #9 made 12 years ago
You'd think that would be the case but unfortunately it doesn't work out that way. A lot of kettle set-ups with a tap (ball-valve) result in the tap not getting very hot at all. In many cases you would be able to put your hand on it and not get burned.GuingesRock wrote:I believe there is less chance of infection with the tap PP, because the whole thing is at 100C for at least an hour during the boil.
All ball-valves are a ball inside a cylinder and so they always hold a pocket of liquid. This liquid does not get rinsed out when you open and close the tap, it just gets replaced a little by whatever liquid is passing through at the time. Put this together with that pocket sitting at an ideal temp for breeding nasties and it's not a good combination.
I know a bloke who lost 1,500 litres of beer from an infected kettle tap. Everyone said, "it won't be your tap," because that gets boiled. Finally he pulled his kettle tap apart and found the infection source. It stank.
If you do have a kettle tap, I suggest sticking a hose on it before you brew and putting that hose in one nostril. Breathe in while opening and closing the ball-valve several times. If there is the slightest hint of something off, pull it apart completely and clean it.
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 28 Mar 2013, 06:52, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #10 made 12 years ago
That’s interesting PP and I heed your warnings. I hope you don’t mind me discussing this further.
You are probably the most experienced and knowledgeable poster on here, and I am a beginner, so I had to think carefully before writing this. I’m keen to get at the truth though, if there is a truth to be got at.
The bloke you know with the infected kettle tap that lost 1,500 litres. That’s scary and there are some important lessons to learn from that, but should the lesson be; “If you are fermenting in the pot, don’t use ball valves.”?
Why was he draining from the kettle through a ball valve? What temperature was the wort at when he was draining it? There may be many other factors that increased the risk, such as the important possibility of the valve being too far away from the kettle and thus didn’t get hot enough. Whatever the circumstances, I’m suspicious that he may not have been fermenting in the kettle and draining alcoholic beer that had finished fermenting, into his kegs. If that is so, then his circumstances would have been different.
I’m neurotic about infection, and I do understand microbiology and mycology somewhat as they are of relevance to my field of work, so when I started this, I made sure the ball valve was as close to the kettle as I could possibly make it. I tried touching the valve during the boil to make sure it would be hot enough and I couldn’t keep my hand on it, and it felt as hot as the bottom of the pot to me. When I do open the ball valve, I spray Starsan into the outside opening first and then open it to drain alcoholic beer (often 7 – 8 % abv) into kegs. The alcohol may reduce the chance of infection.
So far, I haven’t had an infected batch. Again “touch wood.” But I think it is extremely wise to be very cautious, and people should listen to your comments and warnings. I did, and I’ll be more alert for potential sources of problems as a result of reading your post. You raised some important points.
Thanks PP
ps.It may be that fermenting in a kettle with a tap is no more risky than cooling, and draining the wort from a kettle with a tap, to another vessel for fermentation. There is also one less transfer, which may potentially reduce the risk of infection.
You are probably the most experienced and knowledgeable poster on here, and I am a beginner, so I had to think carefully before writing this. I’m keen to get at the truth though, if there is a truth to be got at.
The bloke you know with the infected kettle tap that lost 1,500 litres. That’s scary and there are some important lessons to learn from that, but should the lesson be; “If you are fermenting in the pot, don’t use ball valves.”?
Why was he draining from the kettle through a ball valve? What temperature was the wort at when he was draining it? There may be many other factors that increased the risk, such as the important possibility of the valve being too far away from the kettle and thus didn’t get hot enough. Whatever the circumstances, I’m suspicious that he may not have been fermenting in the kettle and draining alcoholic beer that had finished fermenting, into his kegs. If that is so, then his circumstances would have been different.
I’m neurotic about infection, and I do understand microbiology and mycology somewhat as they are of relevance to my field of work, so when I started this, I made sure the ball valve was as close to the kettle as I could possibly make it. I tried touching the valve during the boil to make sure it would be hot enough and I couldn’t keep my hand on it, and it felt as hot as the bottom of the pot to me. When I do open the ball valve, I spray Starsan into the outside opening first and then open it to drain alcoholic beer (often 7 – 8 % abv) into kegs. The alcohol may reduce the chance of infection.
So far, I haven’t had an infected batch. Again “touch wood.” But I think it is extremely wise to be very cautious, and people should listen to your comments and warnings. I did, and I’ll be more alert for potential sources of problems as a result of reading your post. You raised some important points.
Thanks PP
ps.It may be that fermenting in a kettle with a tap is no more risky than cooling, and draining the wort from a kettle with a tap, to another vessel for fermentation. There is also one less transfer, which may potentially reduce the risk of infection.
Last edited by GuingesRock on 28 Mar 2013, 07:39, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges
