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Post #676 made 13 years ago
by Yeasty
Up your efficiency to around 79% or even 83%. Your grain bill will be reduced.
Can you post your exel file ?? so we can have a look ? I'm a bit short of time tonight but if you can wait I'll try to have a look tomorrow.

:salute:

Yeasty
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Post #677 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
Dukebrewer wrote:The calculator says 6.2kg grain to hit the OG 1.046 while the recipe says 4.5kg.
Hi there Duke,

When the recipe says 23 L, in this case, it looks like they mean 23 Litres at the end of the boil. When it is not clearly stated, it makes recipe conversion much harder as you have to make a few guesses on the hop bill.

Yeasty's 83% recommendation is a good one so I have put that in the file below. I have the file below set up so that the volume at the end of the boil is 23L. You can change this by changing the brewlength. Make sure you change the kettle diameter too.

Here you go...
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 01 Sep 2012, 19:34, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #678 made 13 years ago
by BMD
Hi there,

I'm wanting to try a porter for my first BIAB. Can anyone please help me convert this recipe?

http://www.beersmith.com/Recipes2/recipe_311.htm

My brew pot is 30L, 35cm in diameter. I'm guessing my pot is probably a bit too small for a full 23L into fermenter, but as this is my first attempt at BIAB I would rather brew a smaller volume than go the maxi route.

Also, I like my porter smokey. Maybe I'm being a bit too ambitious for my first attempt, but how much of my pale malt should I swap out for smoked malt in order to add some smokey notes to the above recipe?

Sorry if I've missed anything out or am asking any stupid questions, I've only brewed with kits before so am a complete novice to AG and BIAB.

Thanks
Ben :drink:
Last edited by BMD on 15 Sep 2012, 18:10, edited 9 times in total.

Post #680 made 13 years ago
by BMD
Hi Yeasty

I'm not using either at the moment. I intend to use the calculator once I've purchased a microsoft excel alternative, until then I'm finding myself a bit overwhelmed. Obviously I'm able to calculate a smaller batch from that recipe, but my lack of knowledge is preventing me from taking into account my equipment and the fact that I will be BIAB as opposed to single infusion.

Thanks
Ben

Post #682 made 13 years ago
by Yeasty
BMD wrote:Hi Yeasty

I'm not using either at the moment. I intend to use the calculator once I've purchased a microsoft excel alternative, until then I'm finding myself a bit overwhelmed. Obviously I'm able to calculate a smaller batch from that recipe, but my lack of knowledge is preventing me from taking into account my equipment and the fact that I will be BIAB as opposed to single infusion.

Thanks
Ben
Ok Ben.

I'll assume that you will be using open office Linky and I'll input it on the calculator. Whats your timescale ? when are you going to brew ?

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 15 Sep 2012, 19:49, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #683 made 13 years ago
by BMD
johnaberry wrote:Don't 'purchase' an excel alternative, download Openoffice, it's free and very good

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
Thanks johnaberry, that's saved me $30 :thumbs:

Yeasty: I am hoping to brew next weekend. I've downloaded openoffice (thanks for the link) and had a crack at filling out the calculator. I've substituted the Fuggles hops for Willamette as I believe they are very similar, and I have a pack of Willamette pellets already open that need using up. I changed the weight of hops needed to match the IBU of the original recipe, was this the correct thing to do? I haven't attempted to change out any malt for smoked malt yet, from what I've read I should be swapping out around half of my pale malt for smoked - any feedback or advice on this would be much appreciated.

Thanks for your help :drink:

My calculator attempt is attached.
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Last edited by BMD on 16 Sep 2012, 07:02, edited 9 times in total.

Post #684 made 13 years ago
by Yeasty
Hi Ben

Nice to see you've had a go at the calculator yourself :thumbs: . I've downloaded it and will have a look at it tomorrow.

We'll do the recipe as is and if you want to change it to add some smoked malt you can make a copy and change that one. That way if you get yourself in a mess you can revert to the original and start again.

:salute:

Yeasty
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Post #685 made 13 years ago
by BMD
Nice one, thanks Yeasty!

Edit: Sorry, I failed to enter the types of malt into the calculator. They are listed in the same order as the original recipe I linked but are just named grain 1, grain 2 etc.

Here is an updated version to help avoid confusion.

Cheers
Ben
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Post #686 made 13 years ago
by Yeasty
Hi Ben

I've just downloaded your your updated file and your not far away. I'll have another look later (at work at the moment)

Yeasty
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Post #687 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
[Edit: Ha! I see Yeasty just popped his head in while I was writing the below :lol:.]

Yeasty had to brew all day yesterday in the rain BMD so I'll see if I can fill in for him here :lol:.

You've done a great job on your file :thumbs:. Only one tiny error I could see from you... on the hop page, just change the 4.7 in cell C8 to 4.5 so that it matches the original recipe.

The Original Recipe has Been Compromised.

The original recipe isn't right. See how the boil size and batch size match? That's impossible. It means that there was no evaporation or kettle trub losses. A massive scaling and equipment error has been been made there.

The recipe is a buggered up version of the Porter used as a Beersmith2 sample recipe so I'm going to work from that. All the grains are the same so we don't have to change any of those. The original hops used were 62.1 grams of Fuggles at 4.5% with an end of boil volume (cold) of 21.7 L. (The 21.7 goes in cell E8 on the hop bill sheet).

I've attached the new file below.

Incorrect recipe reports are very common unfortunately :dunno:. So, if you ever see something that doesn't make sense, it probably doesn't :P.

:peace:
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 17 Sep 2012, 17:32, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #688 made 13 years ago
by BMD
Thanks PistolPatch!

Will the cock up in the original recipe affect my converted recipe?

Re. the hops - I have an already opened pack of Willamette pellets that I was going to use instead of the Fuggles. The Willamette's alpha rating is 4.7% which is why I changed it on the file. I altered the weight until the IBU matched that of the original recipe, am I correct in doing this?

Sorry for all the questions.

CHeers
Ben :drink:

Post #689 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
We've fixed the cock up in the 'cloud' recipe by changing the Original Recipe hops (what was used by the original brewer) to 62.1 grams at 4.5% and changing the end of boil volume on the hop bill to 21.7 L.

On the scaled recipe side we have 4.7% (what you will be using) so all is good there.

Unfortunately, IBU's from an original recipe can't be trusted. For a start, there are three different formulas commonly used to estimate bitterness and these can give wildly different estimates. Secondly, some formulas are not written correctly. (For example, the current Beersmith2 version relies on pre-boil gravity for it's 'Tinseth' bitterness formulas whereas the correct gravity to use is the end of boil gravity.)

Pretty silly stuff eh?

Have to duck off for a little while now but if you do an advanced search of my posts with the following "Garetz Rager Tinesth" you should come up with a post that has a pic of the differences between these three methods of IBU estimation. Let me know if you can't track it down and I'll be able to link it later.

;)
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Post #691 made 13 years ago
by Lylo
BMD,I find that the best way to deal with IBU's is to look up the proper IBU'S for the style.This info is readily available on the net.Search BJCP GUIDELINES.Thiss way you have a solid number to shoot for,rather than 1 that has been ground thru untold number of makeshift and misunderstood calculaters.IMHO
AWOL

Post #692 made 13 years ago
by Yeasty
Thanks PP, still drying out from yesterday..

I did the same as you PP and looked up the original recipe in Beersmith, and I found the same as you with the hop AA mistake (easy one to make Ben ). I have my EOBV as 22.64 as per the BS estimate. How come you went for a cold water value ? . I thought that the EOBV in the calc was calculated at 100c. :think: This only alters the IBU by 1 point so it ain't a biggy.

Anyway off to work again :sad:

Yeasty
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Post #693 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
Lylo: That's a good strategy as long as you use the TInseth formula and make sure it is correct. The Tinseth formula is regarded as being more accurate for all-grain than the Rager or Garetz formulas. 'The Calculator' here does use the correct Tinseth formula :party:.

And, too right on recipes getting run through a whole lot of different programs (or even scaled within a program) and getting compromised. That's one nice thing about The Calculator. Assuming you can find out from the original recipe what to put in cell E8 on the hop bill, you can't corrupt a recipe. Unfortunately, recipe reports are so vague, it is not always easy trying to work out what to put in E8 :roll:. (Your method gets around this problem.)


Yeasty: Still drying out - lol! The terminology on end of boil volume is a bit vague in 'The Calculator' (this has been fixed in the BIABacus) but it does work off a cooled end of boil volume.

In reality, all three hop formulas are pretty hit and miss in their estimates. For example, all the hop formulas assume an addition at zero minutes adds no bitterness but, in reality, some is added. A correct Tinseth formula certainly gets us homebrewers in the ballpark though.

Suffice to say that hop formulas should only be regarded as tools.

Hoppy days :roll: :P
Last edited by PistolPatch on 17 Sep 2012, 21:38, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #694 made 13 years ago
by Lylo
PP,isn't an IBU an IBU however you arrive at it?I always thought that if I use theBJCP guidelines as my targets for recipes I should be able to use whatever the calculator comes up with to arrive at those IBU's.I DO believe you have come up with the most accurate hop calculator going,but doesn't that just mean that it gives me the most accurate way to arrive at the suggested numbers?
AWOL

Post #695 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
Lylo, you always ask the best questions :salute:. This is a really good question :thumbs:.

I can't answer it and I'm not sure if anyone really can.

This whole area is so jumbled at so many levels it's way beyond ridiculous. At the highest level, let's assume that you own the scientific instruments that can accurately measure IBU's. Problem 1: (I'm putting this in brackets as I need to check something here but I'm almost 100% sure that there are several different methods of how IBU's can be 'scientifically' measured and that there are many problems involved in when and where the sample is collected.)

Let's assume though that I have the above totally wrong and that any beer's IBU's can be correctly and accurately measured. Is this what the BJCP is basing their IBU definitions on? They don't say but let's assume they are...

Let's pretend an IBU is an IBU

So. let's say that there actually is an agreed scientific way of measuring IBU's and that the BJCP has followed this method. In other words, this particular lager recipe will give you 20 IBU's.

Now, put this exact recipe into any program or calculator and see if you can come up with 20 IBU's. You won't :nup:.

Atm, we have three existing formulas used in calculators/programs to estimate the probably fictitious 20 'scientific' IBU's

Look at the pic in this post. Every estimated IBU is different for exactly the same recipe depending on which bitterness estimate formula has been used.

Over and above this, the software writers have often interpreted the above formulas incorrectly.

One of the most respected software programs around has made many mistakes in just one of their hop formulas and some of these are still present. It took years for a few of us to even get our heads around, "How could they get such a simple formula wrong?" Luckily we all came together in a previous thread here and were scratching our heads at the same time. The existing 'The Calculator' and the upcoming 'The BIABacus' formulas are correct but only if we have assumed that Tinseth, by batch size, meant the end of boil volume at ambient. (I'd have to look through a lot of emails but I'm pretty sure he said yes to this one.)

What were you expecting Lylo?

Lylo, like me and any other sane brewer, you would expect that an IBU is an IBU and that formulas and programs would estimate them correctly.

They don't. They are faulted at many levels.

The best base we have to go on for all-grain atm is the Tinseth formula interpreted at a common sense level. (Would have to check my emails but I think even Tinseth agrees with our interpretation of his 'batch size'. If he doesn't then the formula would be useless anyway.)

So, it's a hard thing to get your head around IBU's

I really hope the above has confused you Lylo as it will make you feel more confident. This whole area is faulted yet few people question it. So mate, that is a real credit to you :thumbs:.

Should we worry about it?... I don't think so but, it is very nice to see the right questions being asked.

Good stuff Lyle :champ:,
PP

P.S. When you study this whole area of IBU estimation, you'd be shocked at how little research these formulas have been based on. Have a look at this TED talk. By the end of watching that, you should be confident you are asking the right questions :clap:. The real point of the talk is about the consequences of when people do not ask the right questions. If we can't ask the right questions in home brewing then may the brewing gods help us on the really important stuff :dunno:.

P.P.S. I'm away for a week and a bit so please excuse any delay in reply ;).
Last edited by PistolPatch on 18 Sep 2012, 23:43, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #696 made 13 years ago
by Lylo
Soooo then, my thinking is that if the BJCP feels that 20 IBU's is the proper level for said beer,shouldn't we do our best to come to arrive at that figure? :think:
I suppose of course that if our IBU calcs are more accurate that anyone elses they will then make the arguement that "those BIABinfo guys truly are heretics and should be mashed and boiled". :o
I guess I am just saying is "Don't we need a target?"! :dunno:
AWOL

Post #698 made 13 years ago
by Lylo
Todd,this is my point exactly!The beer in comps is being judged by weary and numb palates.
The numbers are only a target for us and we can only hope to get close to them,and then let the judges judge.
Since I am the only one who has to drink my swill,I really don't give a rat's rear ring about what my IBU's actually are!
I just want some guidance on where I am trying to get to.
AWOL

Post #699 made 13 years ago
by Yeasty
Lylo wrote:I guess I am just saying is "Don't we need a target?"! :dunno:
I agree Lylo, the best we can hope for is a "target", I take the view that if your hop-ing ( see what I did there :lol: )for say an EBU of 20 all you can do is calculate or should that be estimate how bitter your beer will be.

Its this kind of unknown quantity that makes beers of the same style so different and individual, and keeps our craft producing great beers.

Good topic :clap:

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 19 Sep 2012, 04:58, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #700 made 13 years ago
by Lylo
thughes wrote:And.........exactly what method does the BJCP use to measure the IBU's of every submitted entry? :scratch:

:headhit:

If I wanted your opinion, I'd read your entrails
Last edited by Lylo on 19 Sep 2012, 05:03, edited 9 times in total.
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