Hi,
I am just getting started with BIAB. I have made somewhere around a dozen batches of extract beer that have turned out fairly well, so I thought that I would try out BIAB for more control over my brewing process. My first batch was using Northern Brewer's landlord kit. I have made the extract version of it in the past and really liked it. This time the beer turned out to be really unpalatable with a harsh astringent flavor, after 3 or 4 months the beer still had it so I ended up pouring the batch out. While I was brewing this batch I didn't have the best control over temperatures, I was using a meat thermometer that didn't seem to be very responsive. I held the wort at ~152 for an hour and then tried to raise the temp for a mashout by heating the kettle and stirring constantly, the temperature reading didn't seem to rise for quite a while and then it jumped up to 190 all of the sudden. I thought that this was probably my problem so I ended up investing in a thermapen.
Recently I tried a mini-BIAB to try to work out what was wrong with my first batch. This time I was very careful with temperatures. I made about a gallon and after about 3 weeks it has the same terrible flavor as the first BIAB that I made.
I don't have litmus strips to test pH but I feel like a high pH during the mash might be my problem. Does this seem reasonable? Any other ideas?
Thanks, Rob
PS.
I moved between making the two batches so each one was made using a different water source.
Post #2 made 14 years ago
Hi Rob
I would say its probably a water problem. I had a brew that was rather sharp due to miscalculating my water treatment, made a good shandy but you couldn't really drink it neat..
I'd get a water report from your supplier or if possible hook up with other brewers in your area. You don't say where you are but an SOS might find you a brew buddie.
Another thing to try is do a batch with bottled water.
Yeasty
I would say its probably a water problem. I had a brew that was rather sharp due to miscalculating my water treatment, made a good shandy but you couldn't really drink it neat..
I'd get a water report from your supplier or if possible hook up with other brewers in your area. You don't say where you are but an SOS might find you a brew buddie.
Another thing to try is do a batch with bottled water.
Yeasty
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #3 made 14 years ago
Ah, I hate astringency Rob so am feeling for you.
I can't see any reason why you would experience a problem with all-grain that you didn't find with extract. Your extracts have been fine so I'm leaning towards a mild infection myself that just happens to be coincidental with your moving to all-grain.
If you can get some other brewers to taste your beer, do that first. Also maybe check out your local forum and see if there is a major water deficiency in your area that may have been on both waters you used.
On the infection side, pull apart things you haven't looked at, kettle taps etc, and smell them. If they don't smell right, that would certainly be the cause.
Please let us know how you progress on this one.
Good luck and welcome to the forum by the way
,
PP
I can't see any reason why you would experience a problem with all-grain that you didn't find with extract. Your extracts have been fine so I'm leaning towards a mild infection myself that just happens to be coincidental with your moving to all-grain.
If you can get some other brewers to taste your beer, do that first. Also maybe check out your local forum and see if there is a major water deficiency in your area that may have been on both waters you used.
On the infection side, pull apart things you haven't looked at, kettle taps etc, and smell them. If they don't smell right, that would certainly be the cause.
Please let us know how you progress on this one.
Good luck and welcome to the forum by the way
,PP
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Post #4 made 14 years ago
Sorry, just thought of some things that would be different from your extract brews...
1. Definitely buy a second thermometer of a different type before your next brew. It is not uncommon for a thermometer to be wildly inaccurate. Mashing high can cause astringency (when combined with the below) as well as other problems.
2. Mashing at too high a pH can cause astringency as well. Do what Yeasty said, chat to your home brew shop if you have a good one and consider getting a pH meter or strips if you are in a problem area.
Don't forget the infection side though. That could well be the problem.
1. Definitely buy a second thermometer of a different type before your next brew. It is not uncommon for a thermometer to be wildly inaccurate. Mashing high can cause astringency (when combined with the below) as well as other problems.
2. Mashing at too high a pH can cause astringency as well. Do what Yeasty said, chat to your home brew shop if you have a good one and consider getting a pH meter or strips if you are in a problem area.
Don't forget the infection side though. That could well be the problem.
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
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- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia
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Post #5 made 14 years ago
Good Day, This may not help....
Did you use VERY dark grains/Roast barley?? If you had a very fine grind and a coarse bag, the Dark grain husks could make it thru to the boil...... Too much Tannins.
This won't change by Ph, Just the bag, and dark grain husks.
Been there, done it, too many times. You can purchase husk-free roast barley, now.
Did you use VERY dark grains/Roast barley?? If you had a very fine grind and a coarse bag, the Dark grain husks could make it thru to the boil...... Too much Tannins.
This won't change by Ph, Just the bag, and dark grain husks.
Been there, done it, too many times. You can purchase husk-free roast barley, now.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #6 made 14 years ago
Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I hadn't really even considered infections as a possibility. I am normally pretty meticulous but I will go over everything carefully and see if it helps. I just ordered some pH strips and grains and I have a much better thermometer. For water will bottled "spring" water work or should I get distilled water and make my own adjustments? Thanks again for the help. Once I get my order I will make a small batch and see how everything goes.
Post #7 made 14 years ago
Go with the spring water.You don't need to be messing with water chemistry yet.
AWOL
Post #9 made 13 years ago
Ok, I finally had time to try another batch tonight. I bought a thermapen thermometer and some pH strips and brewed using bottled water. This was a 1 gallon batch. After the mash and just before I removed the bag I tested the pH, the strips ranged from 3.0-6.0 and the strip seemed like it was slightly past the 6.0 end of the scale. Is this something I should be concerned about? Everything is being cleaned meticulously, if this doesn't do it I don't know what else to try, this is driving me crazy.
Grains
1 lbs 15.2 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 90.1 %
2.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.8 %
1.4 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3 4.1 %
Hops
0.15 oz Goldings, East Kent [7.20 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 21.0 IBUs
0.20 oz Goldings, East Kent [7.20 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 5 10.2 IBUs
0.25 oz Goldings, East Kent [7.20 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 6 1.5 IBUs
Yeast
Danstar Nottingham Ale yeast - 3 g
Thanks, Rob
Edit:
This should give an OG of 1.054 and a FG of 1.012. The recipe is supposed to be some sort of an American Amber, I made it up tonight in beersmith for the purpose of troubleshooting this.
Grains
1 lbs 15.2 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 90.1 %
2.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.8 %
1.4 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3 4.1 %
Hops
0.15 oz Goldings, East Kent [7.20 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 21.0 IBUs
0.20 oz Goldings, East Kent [7.20 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 5 10.2 IBUs
0.25 oz Goldings, East Kent [7.20 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 6 1.5 IBUs
Yeast
Danstar Nottingham Ale yeast - 3 g
Thanks, Rob
Edit:
This should give an OG of 1.054 and a FG of 1.012. The recipe is supposed to be some sort of an American Amber, I made it up tonight in beersmith for the purpose of troubleshooting this.
Post #10 made 13 years ago
I can't answer you on the ph as I never check mine.
Your recipe looks fine, the only thing I can say is to let the Nottingham yeast have plenty of time to do it's job. If you try and bottle/keg to early it will have off flavours and aromas, a bit like fermented fruit. Give the yeast time to clean up after itself, say 2 weeks, and you will have a ripper of a beer. Also this yeast can work at lager temperatures, so fermenting at 16°C is a good place for this yeast.
Your recipe looks fine, the only thing I can say is to let the Nottingham yeast have plenty of time to do it's job. If you try and bottle/keg to early it will have off flavours and aromas, a bit like fermented fruit. Give the yeast time to clean up after itself, say 2 weeks, and you will have a ripper of a beer. Also this yeast can work at lager temperatures, so fermenting at 16°C is a good place for this yeast.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #11 made 13 years ago
Once you start to approach and go higher than a mash pH of 6 then you start to worry about astringency and poor attenuation. I'm a little skeptical that you actually had such a high pH since you use bottled water. What kind did you use (spring, distilled, drinking/RO)? Spring water really isn't that great to use for brewing because it has a bunch of minerals in it. By buying bottled water you're presumably trying to start with a clean slate (i.e., no/little mineral content) and you won't get that with spring water. If you're spending the money on bottled water, RO/drinking water is probably the best, distilled would be a close second, IMO.
I've found, with an experiment I did here, that full volume BIAB can be done over a lot of different styles using distilled water without having to worry too much about pH. If you're truly concerned with mash pH then buy a meter, something cheap, or at the very least some pH strips but understand their limitations and how to correctly interpret them.
I've found, with an experiment I did here, that full volume BIAB can be done over a lot of different styles using distilled water without having to worry too much about pH. If you're truly concerned with mash pH then buy a meter, something cheap, or at the very least some pH strips but understand their limitations and how to correctly interpret them.
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 25 Jul 2012, 22:33, edited 3 times in total.
Post #12 made 13 years ago
Sorry.All of my learning leans the other way,towards the spring water over the RO.The minerals in spring water are good for the brew aren't they BBH?I was under the impression that if you use RO you should be building your minerals back up with additions.
One idea that has been floating around is to use 1/2 RO and 1/2 tap or spring
One idea that has been floating around is to use 1/2 RO and 1/2 tap or spring
AWOL
Post #13 made 13 years ago
Spring water is certainly acceptable to use in brewing. The problem is that there could be high amounts of minerals and tracking that down could take as much effort as it would take to get a water report of your own water. By using RO or distilled water you're starting with a clean slate, very little to no mineral content.Lylo wrote:The minerals in spring water are good for the brew aren't they BBH?
Yes, you will have to build that back up. BUT...building water is as simple as adding 1-2 tsp of calcium chloride and/or gypsum to the mash (per 5 gal batch), maybe some calcium carbonate if the mash pH says you should do so.Lylo wrote:I was under the impression that if you use RO you should be building your minerals back up with additions.
Dilution of your tap water with RO or distilled is great route to take, BUT only if your water report indicates a change is necessary. By diluting with RO or distilled water, you're basically decreasing by half (if diluting 1:1) all of the minerals in the water. Some people may only need dilution by half, others may need dilution by 80%, and others by only 25%. The only way to know is by a) getting a water report and/or b) experimentation to determine what's right for your tastes.Lylo wrote:One idea that has been floating around is to use 1/2 RO and 1/2 tap or spring
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 26 Jul 2012, 09:01, edited 3 times in total.
Post #15 made 13 years ago
Hmmm, my tap-water pH is 7.7, I guess this could well be the cause of my astringent / harsh bitter finish I'm getting. It's also less of a problem with darker and higher OG brews. The penny dropped when I used some US Safale 05 yeast on a high-is hopped pale ale. The yeast attenuated all the sweetness and there was nowhere for this harsh flavour to hide. Looking back I've been getting it across all my brews (extract kits included). Hopefully Brew #17 with Brupaks CRS and DLS added as per instructions (http://www.brupaks.com/water%20treatment.htm) will do the trick... here's hoping.
