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Philosophizing - Not beer related

Post #1 made 16 years ago
by SacSoul
For any of you who like to philosophize I will pose a question:

Is math/numbers a human construct?

Theories don't count becuase they are usually developed around the math and are not the math. For instance, the Schrodinger equation has spawned numerous theories/explinations regarding quantum mechanical behaivor, but in each theory the basic Schrodinger equation is the same. So, we can say the theory surrounding the equation is a human construct (or in other words an attempt to explain the math in a way that is understandable and predictive of outcomes), but can we say that the Schrodinger equation itself is a human construct?

Philosphize away :geek:

edit - To ask the question another way would be, did we invent or discover math?

edit2 - To clarify for a few of the posts (and since I didn't in the OP that well now that I read it) I am also not talking about the language that we built around "numbers" which we now deem "math," but rather what they represent. It has been said that if we encounter intelligent life elsewhere, the first and foremost form of communication to be attempted is deciphering one another's mathematical language as it will be directly translatable in absolute terms.
Last edited by SacSoul on 16 Jul 2010, 20:17, edited 1 time in total.
Arrogant Bastard Ale: "...Perhaps you think multi-million dollar ad campaigns make a beer taste better. Perhaps you're mouthing your words as you read this."

Post #2 made 16 years ago
by EoinMag
SacSoul wrote:For any of you who like to philosophize I will pose a question:

Is math/numbers a human construct?

Theories don't count becuase they are usually developed around the math and are not the math. For instance, the Schrodinger equation has spawned numerous theories/explinations regarding quantum mechanical behaivor, but in each theory the basic Schrodinger equation is the same. So, we can say the theory surrounding the equation is a human construct (or in other words an attempt to explain the math in a way that is understandable and predictive of outcomes), but can we say that the Schrodinger equation itself is a human construct?

Philosphize away :geek:

edit - To ask the question another way would be, did we invent or discover math?

I think it's an invention, it fits and it works, but at the end of the day it's an invention.
Last edited by EoinMag on 16 Jul 2010, 15:33, edited 6 times in total.
http://beernvictuals.blogspot.com/ My blog, If you like what you read post a comment on the blog comments section thanks, BIAB post coming soon.

Post #3 made 16 years ago
by wizard78
I'm not much of a philosiphiser or an academic for that matter, but I think the lable numbers/math is an invention, but what it defines is a dicovery. No matter what it is called it still represents something that is an absolute.
If your at an apple tree and count how many apples there are you have just done maths. There is always 'x' amount of anything in this world, whether we're here to do the math or not.
This is probably a real simplistic view of things, and I may have misunderstood the OP(I did say I'm not an academic :lol: )
Disclaimer: I have no factual evidence to back up my theories :lol:
[center]"All right, brain. You don't like me and I don't like you, but let's just do this and I can get back to killing you with beer."
[/center]
[center]Homer Simpson[/center]
[center]K.I.S.S., B.I.A.B.[/center]

Post #4 made 16 years ago
by EoinMag
wizard78 wrote:I'm not much of a philosiphiser or an academic for that matter, but I think the lable numbers/math is an invention, but what it defines is a dicovery. No matter what it is called it still represents something that is an absolute.
If your at an apple tree and count how many apples there are you have just done maths. There is always 'x' amount of anything in this world, whether we're here to do the math or not.
This is probably a real simplistic view of things, and I may have misunderstood the OP(I did say I'm not an academic :lol: )
Disclaimer: I have no factual evidence to back up my theories :lol:

There are cultures and languages in the world that don't deal with the concept of numbers at all, they either have one or many, but no increments in between. I presume it'd be a hard language to do business in, but they're probably agrarian anyway, I also suppose they had no great engineering feats to their name.
Last edited by EoinMag on 16 Jul 2010, 18:33, edited 6 times in total.
http://beernvictuals.blogspot.com/ My blog, If you like what you read post a comment on the blog comments section thanks, BIAB post coming soon.

Post #5 made 16 years ago
by wizard78
EoinMag wrote:
There are cultures and languages in the world that don't deal with the concept of numbers at all, they either have one or many, but no increments in between. I presume it'd be a hard language to do business in, but they're probably agrarian anyway, I also suppose they had no great engineering feats to their name.
Does this just mean that those cultures are yet to "discover" numbers/math? ;)
Last edited by wizard78 on 16 Jul 2010, 18:49, edited 6 times in total.
[center]"All right, brain. You don't like me and I don't like you, but let's just do this and I can get back to killing you with beer."
[/center]
[center]Homer Simpson[/center]
[center]K.I.S.S., B.I.A.B.[/center]

Post #6 made 16 years ago
by PistolPatch
SacSoul wrote:edit - To ask the question another way would be, did we invent or discover math?
Wow SS! Great topic.

Looking forward to hooking into it next time I am posting under the influence. It will be much easier then :).

Only thing I can think of now is that maybe maths is one way we label the tiny patterns we can see in our ineffable universe. In other words we see that there is an apple here and an apple there. Let's label that pattern "two."

There are people (savants) that can picture numbers in their brain like we would picture a tree. For them, the square of 2085 pops into their mind like a birch tree whereas the cube of 2085 might appear as an oak. Pretty weird eh?

Maths can label a lot of things like the swing of a pendulum but it can't seem to find the point at the top of the pendulum where the string is moving and where it is absolutely still. (Which is the top most molecule of that piece of string that is moving???)

In a material society we focus on the moving part of the string - black/white, yes/no, either/or etc. Spiritually based cultures will have their focus on the still part of the string (the top or the source of all movement.)

The oldest philosophy, "yoga," more correctly pronounced, "yog," has hundreds of ways of translating and describing how the source creates everything. I think maybe maths / science stems from ancient yoga as do religions. They are yogic tools that help people experience or at least get a little closer to the source.

My goodness! The above is written after only two beers :).

Fun topic though SS. Good on you!

Anyway, all this talk of maths reminds me that I have to convert a recipe for redlegger ;).

PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 16 Jul 2010, 19:39, edited 6 times in total.
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Post #7 made 16 years ago
by SacSoul
To clarify for a few of the above posts (and since I didn't in the OP that well now that I read it) I am also not talking about the language that we built around "numbers" which we now deem "math," but rather what they represent. It has been said that if we encounter intelligent life elsewhere, the first and foremost form of communication to be attempted is deciphering one another's mathematical language as it will be directly translatable in absolute terms.
Arrogant Bastard Ale: "...Perhaps you think multi-million dollar ad campaigns make a beer taste better. Perhaps you're mouthing your words as you read this."

Post #8 made 16 years ago
by EoinMag
SacSoul wrote:To clarify for a few of the above posts (and since I didn't in the OP that well now that I read it) I am also not talking about the language that we built around "numbers" which we now deem "math," but rather what they represent. It has been said that if we encounter intelligent life elsewhere, the first and foremost form of communication to be attempted is deciphering one another's mathematical language as it will be directly translatable in absolute terms.

Well does maths exist before we put a language structure on it and call it maths? Before that it's just the way nature has evolved. It only needs to exist as a construct where we need to apply it. I for one also don't think that maths is an absolute, when you get into calculus and the "leaps of logic" that are required to make things work (yet mostly provable) then I think you are looking at theoretical frameworks that encapsulate natural phenomenon in some cases.

Hmm it is even hard to write down my thoughts on this one in a coherent way.
Last edited by EoinMag on 16 Jul 2010, 20:20, edited 6 times in total.
http://beernvictuals.blogspot.com/ My blog, If you like what you read post a comment on the blog comments section thanks, BIAB post coming soon.

Post #9 made 16 years ago
by SacSoul
EoinMag wrote: Hmm it is even hard to write down my thoughts on this one in a coherent way.
lol, exactly ;) About a month ago while brewing a batch my brother and neighbor were over. After having far too many drinks I posed this question being that I'm a nerd (and proud of it), one is an engineer, and the other is a philosophy major. While everyone had an opinion, it was very hard to express exactly why you had that opinion and that struck me as both odd and interesting.
Last edited by SacSoul on 16 Jul 2010, 21:53, edited 6 times in total.
Arrogant Bastard Ale: "...Perhaps you think multi-million dollar ad campaigns make a beer taste better. Perhaps you're mouthing your words as you read this."

Post #10 made 16 years ago
by SacSoul
EoinMag wrote:Well does maths exist before we put a language structure on it and call it maths? Before that it's just the way nature has evolved.
That is like asking did light travel at the speed of light (an absolute) before we constructed a language structure to describe it.
Last edited by SacSoul on 16 Jul 2010, 21:59, edited 6 times in total.
Arrogant Bastard Ale: "...Perhaps you think multi-million dollar ad campaigns make a beer taste better. Perhaps you're mouthing your words as you read this."

Post #11 made 16 years ago
by PistolPatch
SacSoul wrote:To clarify for a few of the above posts (and since I didn't in the OP that well now that I read it) I am also not talking about the language that we built around "numbers" which we now deem "math," but rather what they represent. It has been said that if we encounter intelligent life elsewhere, the first and foremost form of communication to be attempted is deciphering one another's mathematical language as it will be directly translatable in absolute terms.
SacSoul wrote:
Hmm it is even hard to write down my thoughts on this one in a coherent way.
I am so going to enjoy this thread :).

The above two posts are great.

In the first, we are looking at how to communicate with intelligent life and maths might be one way. In the second post we are looking at infinity which might be the terror of mathematicians!

I'm not sure that if we met intelligent life on another planet that maths will be the method of communication...

We have intelligent life on this planet and maths is not the preferred method of communication :). We even have the same species but of different races on this planet and maths is one method of communication but not the major one.

For major methods of communication whether it be between races, cultures or any other animal or plant, it boils down to a combination of love or hate. When we meet an alien life form of humanoid status, the first thing we will be pulling out is a smile or a knife. If we pull out a smile, a calculator may follow eventually but the first communication will be, "spiritual," for want of a better word.

I know this doesn't answer your original question SS but I think the answer to your question is unknowable at our current level of development.

Asking if we invent or discover maths I suspect is the same question as, "Do we invent or discover god/s?" i.e "Is there an ultimate equation or is there an ultimate God that explains everything?"

There is a state of mind that some people, religious or non-religious, can experience where everything makes total sense. Some people can experience this state at will. Others accidentally get a glimpse or two of it. Most never experience it.

From my limited understanding of this state, the best way I can see that maths may relate to it is that the viewer can see with great clarity the inter-connectedness and purpose of nature. The viewer gets a glimpse at actually understanding and knowing infinity. Obscure terms such as, "I am you and you are me," actually make perfect logical sense in this state. When not in this state, such terms are ridiculous... unknowable.

One of the many thousands of yogic methods that can assist people to glimpse the unknowable is exploring questions such as you have posed.

For me personally, I love thinking on occasion about these questions, occasionally absorbing myself in them and then realising that I don't have a hope in hell of understanding or answering them :). I'll never understand pure mathematics. I'll never understand quantum physics. But, for us humans, there are a few languages we all understand. Some are negative and some are positive. A lot are inexplicable, baffling or punishing.

The only thing I know mathematically about us humans is we can be both nothing or everything to other humans. I could kill someone tomorrow without even realising it. I could be impatient on the road, toot my horn, give someone the finger and not realise that the person I had just abused might have just broken up with his spouse/partner etc. I might have been the last straw for that person. Who knows?

I might also give a smile or have just talked some shit with the same person and these actions might save their life. Who knows?

I don't do it much but when I do reflect on life, it is not maths that really gets me going (though I do find it fascinating - seriously) but rather the above two paragraphs.

When I do that, I realise how much power we all have as individuals and how hopeless we are at using it well.

Good on us!
PP

P.S. Told you I'd get stuck into this thread after a few beers ;)
Last edited by PistolPatch on 16 Jul 2010, 22:09, edited 6 times in total.
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Post #12 made 16 years ago
by EoinMag
SacSoul wrote:
EoinMag wrote:Well does maths exist before we put a language structure on it and call it maths? Before that it's just the way nature has evolved.
That is like asking did light travel at the speed of light (an absolute) before we constructed a language structure to describe it.

I don't see it as being the same thing at all. Maths is a system based on observation of nature, the speed of light is (when measured using the same arbitrary system) a constant.

This conversation is not getting any easier to put into words by the way :)
Last edited by EoinMag on 16 Jul 2010, 22:43, edited 6 times in total.
http://beernvictuals.blogspot.com/ My blog, If you like what you read post a comment on the blog comments section thanks, BIAB post coming soon.

Post #13 made 16 years ago
by hashie
The language of maths is not yet fully evolved, in my opinion.

eg. we can square a number, we can cube a number, these both make sense. But if we start getting into the 4th dimension and beyond we simply have numbers to the power of...

Is that because we don't yet have a visual to describe the process?

If we have a number to the power of 12 why not call it such and such tetrahedron?
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #15 made 16 years ago
by SacSoul
jmbingham wrote:You guys are hurting my head :D maybe this will make more sense after drink more homebrew good thing I now have 4 kegs :D
Haha ;) I don't claim to know much of anything about math. I never use anything beyond simple algebra at work and it is one of the main reasons I chose organic chemistry over the other chemistries. It sure is fun to think about though (or at least I think so). It is amazing what kind of conversation beer can stimulate. Just ask the naked thinker on the top left corner of the forum ;)

@hashie - I also agree that there is plenty more to be discovered (if that is what you mean by an evolving language). In terms of visual descriptions I think it is near impossible to describe anything in any human language beyond a 4th dimension. Why? I think it is because we live in 4 dimensions (x,y,z, and space/time) and any concept otherwise would be so alien that we would fail to comprehend it. Even the Many Worlds quantum theory, which involves infinite dimensions describes them as diverging possibilities upon observation, which translates to an infinite number of universes all based around our familiar 4 dimensions (i.e. each separate dimension will be part of a set of 4). That idea of 4 could be totally wrong, but it is the only way we can rationalize multiple dimensions because we will most likely never experience anything beyond the 4 that we live in.
Last edited by SacSoul on 17 Jul 2010, 22:47, edited 6 times in total.
Arrogant Bastard Ale: "...Perhaps you think multi-million dollar ad campaigns make a beer taste better. Perhaps you're mouthing your words as you read this."

Post #16 made 16 years ago
by hashie
I agree with what you say sacSoul, I don't think in our current state of evolution that we can comprehend anything greater than 4 dimensions. But given time and study, I think we will. For example , the 5th dimension could be as simple as atmospheric pressure (gravity). This seems to be overlooked dimensionally. Gravity is taken into account in engineering as a constant, yet it is not constant, it fluctuates with atmospheric pressure. That's why at high altitudes everything weighs less (less pressure) but mass stays the same.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
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