BrickBrewHaus wrote:

Aces high wrote:I am intending to transfer it to a secondary straight out of the fridge, add the priming sugar based on 17.5 degrees and bottle straight away.

A couple questions...
1) Are you racking to secondary then racking to a bottling bucket?
2) Are you planning to warm up to room temp before bottling?

For 1)...If yes, skip racking to secondary and just rack directly to bottling bucket.
For2)...If yes, you'll definitely be safe with using 17.5C for your priming sugar calculations. If no, I don't really know, but risk (slight probably) being over-carbonated. (If you put a gun to my head and forced me to guess, I'd say it should only make a small difference )

Yep, racking straight to a bottling bucket, not to a secondry

Aces high wrote:What i was reading... is that you base your priming rates on the highest temperature since the beer has stopped its main fermentation, even if you've crash chilled.

Yep, I know it has taken us a while to get here but I think this is the most logical, sensible and safest way to go.

Because of this, I have just removed the ability to input 'priming temperature' in the 'new,improved, calculator' and am now referencing the fermentation temp instead.

I'm trying to write warnings into the spreadsheet as well and will have to work out one for this area which will be interesting .

The real problem I am battling with now though is...

Natural Carbonation of Kegs

I think I've finally figured out why the recommended dosage for naturally carbonated kegs is half that of bottles but it's very hard to articulate and explain. I've never seen this explanation before so I'm going to have a crack here sorry ...

Bottle priming rates are based on the assumption that you will allow the bottles to remain at 'room' temperature until the bottles carb up. The same goes for naturally carbed kegs except the bottles, once they are capped, are a closed system. The pressure is high at room temp and reduces once the bottles are chilled.

A keg however is an open system. When you put the keg in the fridge, after natural carbonation, most keggers probably also attach a gas line and are therefore applying CO2 pressure that bottles will never see.

So, my opinion is that, if you halve the amount of priming sugar when 'naturally carbonating' a keg, you are really only 'half' natuarally carbonating. (The other half of the CO2 has come from your gas botttle whilst your keg is chilling.)

I suspect that if you wanted to be a 'full-volume' natural carbonator then you would add the same amount of priming sugar as for bottles, let it sit at room temp for the two weeks, then put it in the fridge but do not attach the gas line until the keg has completely chilled.

I've thought on this a lot as this is one of the loose ends I'd like to tidy up before choosing to include or exclude the natural carbonation of kegs in the new calculator.

The above explanation for 50% priming sugar being used in naturally carbonated kegs makes sense to me. If I am correct, then it's a bit silly though trying to put a recommended keg priming rate into the new calculator because the right rate will depend on when the brewer attaches their gas line .

Does this make sense to anyone apart from me?


PP

Good Day PP, and All, I have read many pages of priming bottles and kegs.....PP, you are correct, What ever the amount you use for bottling, is twice what you need for kegs.

But is you use "casks", and hand pump the beer...Bottle amount is the cask amout. Example: "Party Pigs"

I'm suspecting josh that the half the amount is not right. At best, I see it as a figure that won't get anyone into trouble as the bottled CO2 will fix the 'initial' error within a few days.

Good Day PP, Many experienced brewer, say the Co2 in a keg will bring the beer to the Co2 volume chosen by the pressure from the regulator in a few days at the temperature that is used.

Many of them "Like" the "sugar conditiond" beer, more than "pure Co2" conditiing, and prime the keg for 5 days with sugar and finsh with Gas.

So what I mean is, you can "sugar Condition" the beer for the Full Co2 volume needed, and when it goes under Co2 pressure the beer will only carbonate to the gas pressure/temperature/time chosen, no more!

I hope I make sense.

PP, I've been naturally carbing my kegs for 8 years or so and I would NEVER add as much sugar as I would have for bottles.
The beer would be un-drinkable, unless you like ice-cream.

When I carb my kegs I use 76g of white sugar. Because I can, my kegs sit at room temperature for 3 months before being chilled. It is only when I am ready for the first beer from that keg that the gas is connected and the first beer pulled, with perfect carbonation!

I have drank from a naturally carbonated keg after only 10 days and it has still been, slightly under, but well carbonated.

It's my opinion that advocating for brewers to use the full amount of priming sugar for a keg, and for bottling, is ill conceived and not based on sound, rational thinking.

If you don't believe me, give it a go. Prime a keg with 150g or so of white sugar. You wont need a bottle of gas to dispense the beer, but then it wont be beer you can drink.

edit; Another thing to remember, is that when you pour a beer from a bottle, the first thing you do is open the bottle and release all excess CO2. Kegged beer is always under pressure, from beginning to end.

Don't worry hashie, I'm not advocating anything . I hope my post above doesn't read as an advocation because it's not. It was a hypothesis to try and make logical sense of a subject that to me and probably anyone new to it, seems very weird.

So, I'm just trying to develop an understanding. I thought I had a logical explanation worked out but after reading your post, I obviously haven't . No shooting me for trying though okay? .


PP

Allow me to throw another possibility into this confusing mess. John Palmer spoke on this in a Brewstrong podcast. He stated that priming rates are lower for kegs because filling bottles (compared to filling a keg) is more aggressive and turbulent. This causes more carbonation to come out of solution versus filling a keg. Remember that priming rates depend on desired level of carbonation AND amount of dissolved CO2 already in the beer.

This may not be the whole story, but another factor in a complicated process.

When drinking from primed bottles, think of the movement each and every bottle goes through from filling to emptying. The more any carbonated liquid is moved, agitated or shaken, the more CO2 comes out of suspension.

With a keg, it sits until it is placed in a fridge and then it sits until it is empty. The pressure is never released from the keg until there is no beer left. As I stated above, all excess CO2 and pressure is removed from a bottle prior to pouring.

Perhaps this may help to explain it?

Another perspective. I've recently begun trying to counterpressure bottle bottles...

I find that the carbonation in the bottle is lower than the kegs... they lose the c02?

This lead me to some posts on places around which seemed to imply that bottles might need to be carbonated to 3.5 volumes whereas kegs to 2.5 volumes to get the same effect in the glass.

There ya go.

Anyway, there are numerous examples of people mistakenly over-carbonating a keg when using double the recommended amount of sugar by just scaling their bottle carbonation up.

The why doesn't really matter... the effect is real, and the answer is to use half the bottle rate. Whether its ideal or not, doesn't matter... it works, and its the accepted answer

Lets move on

Thanks very much for the ideas and info above . Forgetting the reasoning for a moment, if we want to include keg carbonation in the new calculator, we now have to decide what percentage of the bottling rate should be used for kegs.

Some of you will just say 'half' but this won't work out. Let's look at a 19 L (5.02 gal) bulk prime. Some calculators ignore temperature and CO2 volumes totally and just say, "Use 8 grams of cane sugar per litre." This means 162 grams. Yes, that is about double hashie's rate, however...

More detailed formulas such as the one we are using, come up with a far lower figure. For example, at 18 C and 2.5 vols CO2, we some up with 109 grams of cane sugar. At 11 C we come up with 93 grams. (Other advanced priming calculators (also here) come up with similiar numbers.

hashie wrote:When I carb my kegs I use 76g of white sugar.

Depending on what temp hashie is fermenting at, this could be anywhere from 74% to 82% of the advanced priming calculator rates*.

I know this subject is frustrating/boring/tedious etc but the above should illustrate why we have to spend so much time investigating and researching formulas before we choose to add them.


PP

* Sig put a lot of study and time into the bottle priming formula for the BIABacus. This is the same formula going into the new calculator. For those interested, here are some of the relevant links...

http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... with-sugar
http://hbd.org/ddraper/priming.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://hbd.org/brewery/library/YPrimerMH.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Okay, I rang hashie earlier today and told him to stop being mean to me . He only agreed after I sent him $100 .

hashie confirmed his 50% was based on a 'simple' priming calculator's result and he fermented at ale temps (18 C I'm assuming).

So, I am proposing (not advocating hashie ) a possible conclusion to this thread is as follows...

1. Use a reputable priming calculator that asks for fermentation temperature and volumes of CO2.

2. Totally ignore calculators that, in themselves, totally ignore fermentation temperature and volumes of CO2. (Scientifically, how can they possibly be right?)

3. If naturally carbonating a keg, use 75% of the recommended bottling rate derived from a proper priming calculator. The reasoning for this is due to splashing or something .

There is actually one other problem but I'll give you guys a break for now ,
PP

[Note to Self: Several discrepancies exist between different types of 'sugars'. One calculator will rate say corn sugar much higher than another calculator rates corn sugar )]

Okay, I rang hashie earlier today and told him to stop being mean to me . He only agreed after I sent him $100 .

PP,
You are a no good crappy brewer! You drink mega-swill and like it! You would rather get good "numbers" than good beer! Please send a $100 dollar check (US) to BobBrews Central Wisconsin USA!

P.S. Nothing personal, I can use the money!

I'll sign my cheque over to you Bob, just post up your bank details and passwords so I can direct deposit for you.

Cheers

Edit; PP, I brew Ales between 12 & 16°c (more often 16, and generally aim for 2.4 volumes of Co2 - whatever that means?!?

Rest assured, the carbonation will get better over a few more weeks if it is left at room temperature (assuming you don't drink it all before then!). Also a good idea to chill it for at least 48 hours before drinking to allow all the CO2 to get dissolved into the beer.

---Todd

thefrothologist wrote:Since there was so much discrepancy between opinions I went with Beersmith's suggestion of using 127g of dextrose.

Good man!

However, BeerSmith's formula disregards fermentation temperature so unfortunately it is not as accurate as it could be. It will work most of the time however.

What I am trying to say is that if you are using a calculator that disregards fermentation temperature then that calculator should not be completely trusted.

There are some other incorrect formulas in BeerSmith. I'll leave it up to you if you want more info on them. Hopefully they will be corrected eventually.

Hi there froth

Running out of time now so, very quickly, for me at least , here's some thoughts...

If you are using BeerSmith2, take the time to read and study the BeerSmith2 Guide for BIABrewers. It will take a lot of time but will help you become aware of ways in which you can avoid getting wrong numbers when designing and scaling recipes using the program.

On the formulas side I think atm (and I have not studied them all), the main ones I'd be aware of for all-grainers are...

1. Tinseth IBU's* - The formula in BeerSmith 1 and 2 uses pre-boil gravity as the gravity figure required in the formula whereas Glen Tinseth uses the end of boil gravity (usually OG). (BeerSmith 1 also uses volume into fermentor in this formula instead of end of boil volume.)

2. Extract Potentials - The moisture content of the grain is not taken into account in BS. In other words, if you change the moisture content of a grain, the resulting OG of the recipe does not change.

So, be alert but not alarmed ,
PP

* The original BIABrewer.info, 'The Calculator' hop formulas were correct. The current one is a compromise between the right formulas and BeerSmith2's. The BIABAcus will revert back to the correct formulas. So, the BIABacus will give lower IBU results than the current version of BS2 and, in some cases, far lower IBU's than those of BeerSmith1. (I am glossing over the volume part of Tinseth's formula however, there is only one interpretation of it that is of any use - long story!)

Bumping this thread to ask...

If you have feedback on what priming sugar rates are working for you, can you please post them in this thread even if you have already done so above? This would really help to finalise the BIABacus priming formula.

Please note your height above sea level as well if you can. Much appreciated .