First brew Beersmith confusion.... California Common- Jamil

Post #1 made 14 years ago
OK, so I just brewed my first BIAB batch- a california common from Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles book (p108-110).

4.53kg pale ale malt
560g Munich
450g Crystal 40l
227g Victory
57g pale chocolate
5830g total grain bill

My equipment setup is pretty much the same as the one in the book-and i ordered the stuff before i found this site so I just used the exact amounts copied from the book.

A screenshot of my equipment setup is attached.

Brew details

Water used- 30 litres
Start of boil volume- 26 litres
End of boil volume- 22 litres
loss to trub/chiller- 2 litres
volume into fermenter- 20 litres (plus added a 2 litre starter)
end of boil gravity 1.056

The book calls for a OG of 1.054 so i hit the numbers but when I put the recipe into beersmith using my equipment profile it gives me an estimated OG of 1.068, which seems way too high for this style and thus making my efficiencies seem much lower than I am assuming they really are (see screenshot).

Why, despite the fact that my equipment setup and the brewing classic styles setup are almost identical is beersmith predicting a much higher OG than the book gives?

sorry for long winded mail but still getting my head around the software.

Thanks

Jamie
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Post #2 made 14 years ago
Hi there Jamie - well-written post :salute:,

Unfortunately, it's quite easy to make large errors in BeerSmith2 if you press a few wrong buttons (or don't press some :roll:). My main computer has blown up so I can't help you out much today but should be back on board properly in another day or so.

So as you don't get into trouble using BeerSmith2, I suggest you study/read this BIABrewer guide (this includes how to scale 'Brewing Classic Styles' recipes) and also this post on the BeerSmith forum written by Pat from BIABrewer.info.

Reading through those will show you some of the ways you can go wrong. It will also show you it's really not a very user-friendly program atm - way too much work/study required to be able to use it correctly.

One thing I can see from your pics above is that the efficiencies are different. The top pic says 75.4% and the bottom 72.4% so there's a problem there straight away. Maybe upload the recipe to here if you can. If not, don't worry. Will see if I can offer some more help when my computer's working again.

Cheers,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 16 Jan 2012, 17:38, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #3 made 14 years ago
Thanks for the reply,

I read the Biabrewer guide and thought I had grasped it but when i went to put it into practice i ran into this problem.

Ive now set both brewhouse efficiences at 70% now, so they both match up. Had been playing around with them a bit after my first brew.

BS still predicts an OG of 1.064 whereas the book says the recipe should be 1.054 for a similar batch size.

One thing I thought about the higher Estimated OG in BS is that the Jamil BCS book assumes an efficiency into boiler of 70%, whereas BIAB is generally higher and would therefore produce a higher OG than the methods used in the book? This would mean that my gravity of 1.056 was low for the biab method and therefore of low effieciency....? Is this possible?

updated screenshots are attached as is the recipe.

Many thanks

Jamie
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Post #4 made 14 years ago
Looks like I've blown up my motherboard as well jamie so am stuck on a laptop which slows me down a bit.

Here's where I'm up to....

1. Opened your file and noticed that the screen display is different from yours.
2. Checked for latest versions of BeerSmith2 and it said I was up to date :scratch:.
3. Checked the BeerSmith website and found that Build 57 is the latest version :roll: (On the support page it says, "Build 40 now available!" :smoke:

4. Meanwhile, put the recipe into the Calculator and the beta version of the BIABacus. Both of these agree with the book.

It could take quite some time to determine why BeerSmith is giving a wrong gravity reading. I usually have three screens going which makes things a lot easier. The real problem is there could be a number of things wrong with BeerSmith. It could be a problem with that release or any other number of things.

I might have another look at this later when I have all my screens available jamie but I'm also meant to be helping out with the BIABacus and every hour spent looking at the faults of other programs, explaining the faults and then providing a work-around is time spent away from the BIABacus.

Anyway, the latest version of BS2 has downloaded now. If I see an obvious error you have made in the next day or so, I'll post back. So far though I can't see anything you have done wrong.

The Calculator here is pretty crap and primitive but it's numbers/formulas are a solid base and it doesn't take too much study. I highly recommend anyone study it first. (The BIABacus is heaps better but that's another story.)

:salute:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 17 Jan 2012, 20:12, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #5 made 14 years ago
Thanks PP...

I cant get it to add up with the calculator either- the grain bill of 5830g always comes out at a higher estimated OG no matter how much I play with it. If you still have it stored in the calculator could you attach a copy? With an OG of 1.054 the calculator always seems to want a grain bill of 5000-5300g depending on batch size.

Thanks

Jamie

Post #6 made 14 years ago
What happens when you change your brewhouse efficiency to 65% in equipment profile ?

Without doing any calculations it looks about right to me? I normally use about 5kg of grain with about 32l preboil and about 27L after boil around 1.045 - 1050 ? I have my brewhouse efficiency as 65% (I lose a fair bit to trub etc) and mash efficiency says about 78% or so.

You have a bit more grain and are using a smaller volume so would expect it to be a fair bit higher?

Edit: I suspect batch volume isn't that important a figure (in beersmith anyway.. it is mainly for brewhouse efficiency I think), more important would be the preboil and postboil volumes. The gravity of the wort will be the same as the postboil gravity no matter how much you leave behind in the boiler.

Post #7 made 14 years ago
jamieboot wrote:Thanks PP...

I cant get it to add up with the calculator either- the grain bill of 5830g always comes out at a higher estimated OG no matter how much I play with it. If you still have it stored in the calculator could you attach a copy? With an OG of 1.054 the calculator always seems to want a grain bill of 5000-5300g depending on batch size.

Thanks

Jamie
Sorry for the slow reply Jamie - my main computer is in worse shape than I thought!

Here's a copy of some figures I quickly ran through. Only look at the first sheet as I didn't do anything to the other sheets.

All we are really interested in is End of Boil Volume (EOBV), Original Gravity (OG) and the grain bill. You'll see in the attached sheet we have the same figures as the book (assuming the book means an ambient end of boil volume*) and it comes up with 5699 grams which matches the 5830 grams of the recipe (remember the gravity of 1.048 could actually be anywhere between 1.0476 or 1.0484)

* The only thing that Brewing Classic Styles is not clear on is whether the end of boil volume is at 100 C or ambient. The calculator works on ambient temps but even if we change the calculator so that the EOBV reads 23.6 which would be the EOBV at boiling point, we still only need 2930 grams.

When I get my main computer up and running (after the weekend) I'll input the recipe into BeerSmith and let you know how I go.

Cheers,
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 19 Jan 2012, 18:58, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #8 made 14 years ago
Okay Jamie, after writing the above, I overcame my aversion to using my laptop :P and put the recipe into BeerSmith2. I've attached it below. (Hopefully the publishers, "Brewing Publications," will ignore this breach of copyright as they are very good to BIABrewer.)

You'll see that the numbers add up.

And therein lies the problem with using BeerSmith2. There are just too many ways that you can incorrectly use the program and get wrong numbers. What did you do wrong? Who knows? I once worked out 8 ways a user could scale a recipe in BeerSmith2 and only one way would give the right answer. As I said before, there are just too many ways a user can make mistakes that are perfectly reasonable.

I haven't seen you in BIABacus Betas. Join it! :lol:

Seriously though, the BIABacus has none of these problems and does a heap of stuff other programs won't do. The problem is that it is in spreadsheet form and so only works on a very limited range of platforms for now.

:salute:
PP
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Post #9 made 14 years ago
:clap: :clap: Good work PP. This one had me beat, although I could get it to work in the calculator ok (says it all that doesn't it)

Your not wrong about BS its so easy to dig a hole for yourself. I really should study it more as I like to use a second program sometimes just to back up your own thinking and give yourself a bit of confidence.

A+

Yeasty
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Post #10 made 14 years ago
I hope jamie hasn't given up brewing now Yeasty :).

I was just trying to remember some of the traps and what I remember is that changing volume or efficiency figures in the recipe design view can lead to problems. The safest path was always to create a new equipment profile for the change (very cumbersome) and then scale the recipe to that new profile.

When I get some more time, I'll dig up some notes I made a while back.

:peace:
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Post #11 made 14 years ago
sorry guys, thanks for the help. I didnt notice these posts as didnt have notifications switched on.

I managed to get the figures to tally up in the end with a bit of experiementing. I know what you mean about BS!

How do i sign up for the BIABacus beta?

Cheers

Jamie

Post #12 made 14 years ago
Notifications are a great tool Jamie - glad to see you found them!

As for being a BIABacus beta, I think you need to send Pat a PM requesting you become a beta. I haven't seen any other way :scratch:.

My advice is not to join as he will give you jobs that end up taking hours :roll:.

:lol:
PP
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Post #14 made 14 years ago
I totally agree Lylo! :lol:

The reason I haven't posted here in the last few days is due to constant demands from BIABrewer and Pat... "Have you done this yet?" "Have you done that?" I hope they give us guys a BIABrewer award or something :smoke:. :lol:

Seriously though, there is a lot of heavy lifting being done atm by the BIABacus team. Even jamie's offer to be a beta has resulted in complications. Throwing him into the beta team now may actually not be of service to him.

For a start, at the moment, no one has the time to explain the BIABacus to a new beta. The goal of the BIABacus is for it to be self-explanatory but you can imagine how much more work this is going to take! So, jamie would basically end up seeing something pretty cool but, unless he had exactly the right operating system and version of Excel, all he will find is problems! On a first glance, it will look cool but there is a heap of simple but very important stuff that simply can't be done in Excel.

So, even if the beta version worked on his system, he would get no support and would have to at least be totally familiar with the concepts that already exist in The Calculator. These are simple, powerful concepts (more so than we originally thought) but they need a corresponding simple but powerful explanation. It is a totally new approach to recipe design and calculation. (It's a hell of a lot more than that actually.) Explaining the power, simplicity and flexibility of this new approach is, unfortunately and paradoxically, one of the biggest hurdles. In fact, making massively complex things easy is the major theme of the BIABacus project.

I'm not sure if jamie will be accepted into BIABacus Betas. If he is, I think he will be the last for a while. So my advice to others is...

1. Any program takes time to learn. The Calculator looks crap but it is actually a lot more powerful and accurate than other better-looking programs. Most of us experienced brewers, certainly all of us that understand the numbers, treat the existing calculator as our primary tool.

2. You can always get help in Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment.... BIABacus beta testers like myself are allowed to post BIABacus recipe reports in that thread. In other words, give us a good recipe and, a few of us at least, will be prepared to type it into the BIABacus, click a button and then paste you a recipe report.

3. I had a third point. I should think it through more but basically there are a lot of people working on this project. All of us work for free but we all have an income. Recently someone from a country currently experiencing economic woes most of us will never see said, "I am sitting here dong nothing. I am happy to help you. I do not want or need to get paid."

He is a programmer and has already put his hand up to create BIABacus3. He's a delightful brewer and is just what BIABrewer.info needs right now.

Is it right for all of us to capitalise on this? I don't think so and neither does BIABrewer.

BIABrewer has asked us betas to think of ways to raise money. Until we think of these ways, BIABrewer has advised that any donations will be allocated to the BIABacus development team. In turn, via a skype today, the BIABacus team voted that any donations should be forwarded to the developer I mentioned above.

In addition to this, BIABrewer will record any donations and give the donators a credit. In other words, if BIABrewer offers a paid service in the future, any donations made now will act as a credit towards this. (Apparently they already do this anyway.)

If everyone pitched in a few dollars now, it would actually make a big difference. In a year's time it won't be anywhere near as useful. So, if you have ever thought about clicking on 'Donate', now is the time to actually do it.

:salute:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 05 Feb 2012, 02:57, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #15 made 14 years ago
MODNOTE: Sorry PP. I corrected a spelling mistake above and at the same time accidentally changed the post above to my name. Fixed now. We'll put out an update on the BIABacus as soon as we can.
Last edited by Pat on 05 Feb 2012, 09:59, edited 3 times in total.
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