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Post #26 made 7 years ago
by PistolPatch
I know what you mean about the fruit in beer. youmustbemellow and I brewed an IPA the other day that required two additions of grapefruit (one in boil and one in secondary). YMBM made up too much rind (36 grams instead of 14 grams) for the boil and asked whether to throw it in. I didn't think the boil addition would do anything but man does it taste like grapefruit! I don't think we'll be doing the secondary addition!

Quick Question

mally's linked Gordon Strong's recipe above (sort of) and we want to do that recipe but do the round-about mash schedule. The only thing that worries me about the recipe is the 14 grams of 16.5% Apollo hops going in at 60 mins - 23 L VAW giving 24.4 IBU's in BIABacus).

The Apollo seems to be way out of style. Also, can't get it here. Looked up different hop substitute sites and have 7 different answers :roll: - Bravo, Columbus, Magnum, Nugget, Summit, Tomahawk and Zeus :lol:.

I can get or have about four of those subs. (Have to buy ingredients in 12 hours).

But, main question is, does anyone know why Gordon would be using such a high AA hop in a Saison? I like contrarian's idea of letting the yeast do the work rather than anything else???
Last edited by PistolPatch on 14 Jun 2016, 23:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Saison receipe

Post #27 made 7 years ago
by Contrarian
Looking at the recipe it appears that he has just gone with the method of using whatever high aa% hops are on hand to deliver the bitterness rather than anything else and I would think that any substitute would be fine.

In that recipe it is really just to balance malt sweetness and should still let the yeast shine through although the grain bill looks unnecessarily complicated to me!

Post #28 made 7 years ago
by Brew4me
In his book he talks of going with Apollo as a change from his original recipe, which used Perle and Willamette, for the grapefruit and citris quality (sounds like you have plenty of grapefruit flavor already :lol: ) His other major change is the round-trip mash schedule.
I will likely be brewing this also, but will go with the Perle and Willamette.

Pete
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Post #29 made 7 years ago
by PistolPatch
Thanks guys :peace:.

Just making some final decisions and might go for the following...

Malt - Close eyes, reach into my grain bin and grab two malts. Use them.
Hops - Close eyes, reach into hop selection and choose one. Use that.

I think this will be to style :lol:.
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Post #31 made 7 years ago
by goulaigan
I have done 5 or 6 Saisons since I started brewing a couple years ago. I just looked through the recipes and each one was tweaked slightly from the last, the 6th one is completely different than the first, and honestly, they all turned out awesome IMO. They have won a few medals both as a Saison, and ones I have batch primed with organic cherry or blueberry juice have won medals in fruit beer categories, not that that really means much. I do think it confirms that the grain bill and hops really aren't too important, as long as nothing overpowers the yeast as stated above. I will attach my first and last just for a laugh...
BIABacus PR1.3K - AG5 - Skrawny Saison - Batch 1.xls
BIABacus PR1.3T - AG44 - Saison6.xls
(I haven't brewed the Saison 6 yet, but it is very close to my Saison 5 :) It will be batch primed with Organic cherry juice since everyone seems to really love that variation....)

I actually just realized that every single one has been brewed with the original vial of WLP566 I purchased for the first one too, now going on generation 7 and still tasting great!

(Edit 3 : Crap now everyone is going to know my dirty little secret of only mashing and boiling for 60 mins over the last year or so :sneak: ... For me the couple percent loss in efficiency is worth the hour of time :whistle: And I've had no adverse effects from the shortened boil ... Please anyone reading this note this is not considered best practice and a 90 min mash and boil are recommended!)
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Last edited by goulaigan on 15 Jun 2016, 22:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #32 made 7 years ago
by PistolPatch
Contrarian wrote:As long as you don't end up with roast barley and brown malt you should be sweet!
They are the two bloody grains I picked! Ended up going to the shop and bought 5kgs of every malt they had (except black patent malt but only because they had run out) so have a half ton to choose from now and am no longer panicked :lol:.
goulaigan wrote:I have done 5 or 6 Saisons
Now you post after I have just bought a half ton of grain :angry:.

I'm going to ask a moderator to delete your post. As soon as my fellow brewer sees cherries, she'll say, "Let's brew that one." We've just brewed a bloody stout with 2.5 kgs of cherries and God knows how much cocoa into 5 gallons in the fermenter. Tastes like a bloody cherry liqueur chocolate. I have no idea if it is infected or an award-winning beer :shock:. I really can't wait until my co-brewer lets me brew my next lager or even just an APA :pray:.

Anyway, have downloaded your files and will look forward (think I just lied) to reading them. I actually will look forward to looking at them as I know they will be a heap better than most I have come across and probably up there with the best. Yep, you are a poster I definitely trust.

I'm suspecting that your recipes might be complex though (you mentioned fruit :argh:) so I'm hoping that Contrarian will post a more basic recipe (very few ingredients) in the next day or so as that is what I really want for our first Saison - no cherries!!!

:lol:
PP

P.S. The 60min mash will be fine on most grain bills. It will cost you in efficiency on some bills more than others. A few bills it won't cost at all. 90 min boil is a bit similiar. In a few tap waters, you would never do it. In most tap waters with most grain bills you'll be fine. So, not a dirty secret at all goul :). Definitely best (safest) general advice is the 90. I've done both and have given up on a fast-converting grain bill with "clean" water because I need the extra hour to look for what I need next e.g. "Where's my chiller gone? I'm sure it was just here," or "Where's my beer gone? It was just here a minute ago."
Last edited by PistolPatch on 16 Jun 2016, 01:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #33 made 7 years ago
by mally
PistolPatch wrote:with most grain bills you'll be fine. So, not a dirty secret at all goul :)
Ignore this please Goul!
goulaigan wrote:Crap now everyone is going to know my dirty little secret of only mashing and boiling for 60 mins over the last year or so
It is heresy, I say burn him at the stake!!!! :lol: :lol:
Last edited by mally on 16 Jun 2016, 01:05, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #34 made 7 years ago
by goulaigan
Crap I just spent like 20 mins playing around trying to quote this and that from posts above and writing a bunch of replies and lost it all hah. My forum abilities are terrible for an IT guy. Anyway, I'll just do it my way without the fancy quoting etc.

PP- sorry for the late reply been super busy lately with barely time to brew and bottle let alone browse the forum. As far as the fruit, I prefer organic juice over actual fruit, it is pasteurized so no infection worries and it can be used to prime rather than putting into fermenter where some aroma is lost out the airlock. ( A little pectin enzyme addded to the juice so the beer will clear) I prefer the saison without but the juice works well for a nice subtle flavour that doesn't overshadow the yeast.

For my recipes, I have found that it really doesn't seem to matter if there is 5 or 6 small specialty malt additions or 1, at its simplest I have made it with 2row base, a bit of aromatic (1-3%) and a bit of wheat (5-15%) for head retention and that nice belgian lacing. I never use sugar either, just seems unnecessary... I quit using pils as a base too since its harder for me to get, and I honestly don't notice a difference with 2 row, although pils would be more traditional.

Same for the hops, whatever you have for bittering and something noble-ish for flavour and/or aroma.

As far as yeast, I really like the wlp566, I have tried the french saison (can't remember the proper name)in a friends beer and much preferred the 566. I have heard good things about the Belle Saison as well but haven't tried it.

Let us know how it turns out!
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Post #35 made 7 years ago
by goulaigan
Apparently I was wrong on the simple version on the wheat percentage, it was quite a bit higher, but I'd be willing to bet it really doesn't matter hah. Also it was special B not aromatic, again other than the colour, probably made no difference. I should really check these things before I post, ah well, here is that file too...

(IBUs were lowered considerably on this, most likely because I only had super low AA hallertauer at the time, or I wanted the fruit juice to shine through more, can't remember which... Saisons are pretty forgiving in pretty much every aspect except yeast, and taste good to me anywhere from 10-30ish IBU)
BIABacus PR1.3T - AG24 - Chaison2.xls
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Last edited by goulaigan on 16 Jun 2016, 02:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #36 made 7 years ago
by Brew4me
goulaigan,
When you use the organic juice do you compensate the grain bill or TWN with the fact that your adding juice in the fermenter?
Pete
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Saison receipe

Post #37 made 7 years ago
by Contrarian
PP as a jumping off point keep it as simple as possible. I always use Pilsner malt unless I don't have any in which case I use ale. Munich or Vienna if you want to add some colour and wheat or carapils for head retention.

Try
75 pils
15 wheat
10 Munich

OG 1.045

Mash at 63C for 90 or longer for added dryness.

Try the yeast bay saison blend. Start at 20 and heat up to around 30 and hold it there until it's finished.

Can't get any simpler than that!

Hops saaz at 60 to 20IBU and 15 to 5 IBU

Post #38 made 7 years ago
by goulaigan
Brew4me, when I use Juice like I said above I batch prime with it instead of sugar, rather than add it to the fermenter. I suppose if you did add it to the fermenter you could compensate for it since you know the sugar content to the gram - unlike actual fruit. I have tried it but found I get better results with the batch priming method. The juice I use is like $14 a litre, so I can't have any of its aroma escaping out the airlock at that price....
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Post #40 made 7 years ago
by PistolPatch
Again, thanks to all of the above - much appreciated ;).

youmustbe mellow and I have decided to go the simple route as goulaigan and Brew4me advised. It's the advice I would offer to someone in our position.

Not brewing this until Tuesday so if anyone suggests any changes,please let me know. The following BIABacus is PR1.3ZZZ which has not been released yet but I'm using it for all my latest recipes so as I can look for any errors (there are a few but not on the numbers side of things as far as I can see).
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Post #41 made 7 years ago
by goulaigan
Brew4me - I calculate it by the amt of grams of sugar per serving (says on the bottle) multiplied by how many servings in the bottle, then use a priming calculator for sucrose, I like my saisons around 3-3.2 volumes carbonation, so from that I usually get close.

PP - I will take a look at the file tomorrow just for fun (when I in front of a computer) but I am sure as long as you use a saison yeast you will be good. I brewed saison number 6 on thursday, already smells awesome. Make sure to ferment it warm if you want that saisonyness to really come through, 25C plus won't hurt it one bit.
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Post #42 made 7 years ago
by goulaigan
Should make a fine Saison PistolPatch. Only advice I would have is that 3711 yeast I find is not super 'saisony' compared to others so I would probably allow the temp to ramp up right away or pitch at higher temps if you want to get more of the saison character. Interesting mash schedule, I am interested to see how that turns out, ie fg/dryness...
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Post #43 made 7 years ago
by PistolPatch
Thanks Goul ;),

The funny mash schedule comes from Gordon Strong's book.

Thanks also for the advice on the 3711. I bought a heat pad (can't believe I have had to do that for one bloody brew especially when I live in Perth!!!) and will look forward to pitching at 22°C as this will make chilling faster than usual. Will then let it rise naturally and then push the bugger up with the heat pad into temps unknownst to me before - scary stuff!

Have the starter going and it tastes like saison already :thumbs:.
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Saison receipe

Post #44 made 7 years ago
by Contrarian
You probably didn't need to buy a heat pad to achieve the desired result. In an insulated chamber like a fermenting fridge a lamp with an incandescent bulb attached to the hot side of your temp control will generate more than enough heat to get up to 30C!

The other option is just to brew at ambient as the seasons dictate although unless you're in tassie it never really gets cold enough for lagers!

Post #45 made 7 years ago
by PistolPatch
I do have the light bulb but no cabinet/space left to put it in :).

I have five beers in my bloody bedroom atm (a mate dropped off two of his brews that had stalled), have an oil heater turned on full and am battling to get to 22C.

Pitched the Saison on Tuesday and 48 hours later it is at about 21C. My plan is to increase the temperature by 1 C every day for the next week or so up until a max of say 28C. Please let me know if that plan sounds okay.

:peace:
PP
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Post #46 made 7 years ago
by goulaigan
Hah, my fermenting beers generally sit beside my bed on the floor or on the nightstand, usually both. My wife is not a huge fan of that, which is why building a garage this summer is as important to her as it is me. Unfortunately its not going as quick as I hoped, having never built a garage before, and having poor ground conditions has been slowing me down a bit....

Anyway, you will be perfectly fine at those temps PP, the only thing I have found is the 'Saisonyness', as I like to refer to it, increases when the temps are higher during the initial and most active days of fermentation. There is no problem having the temp lower, Saison yeast is generally pretty ravenous at any ale temp. I know Wlp565 likes to stall out if you don't raise the temp up, not sure about 3711 but since you are planning to ramp it up to 28 it doesn't really matter. When I pitched mine last Thursday I believe the temp was about 27, at that point I just let it sit at ambient in my house which is usually 20-23 this time of year. That's why I like 566 instead of 565, it never stalls out no matter the temp. Not positive but I don't think 3711 is prone to stalling either... Interested to hear how it turns out!
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Post #48 made 7 years ago
by PistolPatch
Sorry for my slow response goul and MS. Under the pump this week.

The heat pad I bought when used in conjunction with a temp controller that can do "fine control" and a cover seems to have controlled the temp nicely. (Will post pics down the track).

My only problem is the Saison started at 1.060 and seven days later was 1.006. Seems to taste fine - nothing off. Fastest ferment I have ever had on a beer and now I'm not sure what to do with it? Racked it to a secondary two days ago (Day 7) and am not sure what I should do next?

Any thoughts?
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Post #49 made 7 years ago
by goulaigan
That sounds about right PP. Saison yeasts are beasts! Anyway, personally I never rack anything to secondary, I just leave everything in primary for 2 weeks or so and bottle. For your saison, if it were me I would probably give it another 5 days at least or a week for the yeast to clean up and call it a day. Then you can rack it on to all that fruit right? Hahaha. Joking aside tho, that's pretty normal for a saison so no worries...
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