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My quest to control FPL.

Post #1 made 10 years ago
by Rick
Edit: BIABacus file upped to 6G due to discussions below.

PistolPatch was kind enough to look at my previous recipe, and settled my worries of the potential of self-sabotage. I'm a newbie, and I just don't have enough experience to get everything to jive the way I want it to. Perhaps once I start to see trends as I gain experience, it won't bug me so much. Which, in turn .. will have me not bugging all of you so much! :whistle:

The thread I linked above is a pretty heavy read considering I like to go off on tangents, so I'll give a TL;DR version of what has happened, and where I'm trying to go. If you dare to enter that thread for more/too much info from me .. that's up to you! :argh:

I've made two pretty large IPA's, BIAB - 5 gal using the BIABacus.

Batch #1 VIF = 5G/19L - 7.7% ABV IPA - 10oz total hops incl. dry hops
Batch #2 VIF = 5.5G/20.82L - 8.5% ABV BIPA - 14oz total hops incl. dry hops (follow above link for this file if you wish).

VIP's have been 4G and 4.2G, respectively. I seem to be losing a huge amount in the fermenter (1G+), perhaps due to those being higher gravity? No idea. I get that hops absorb wort, but my VIF's haven't been far off, nor has my bottling bucket volume differed from secondary to a significant degree.

My ultimate goal is to get my 5G secondary filled to the tippy top to eliminate head space, repeatedly. I plan on making a sour in the future, so this is obviously critical to keep oxygenation to a minimum due to lengthy secondary fermentation times.

Logical next step for me is to brew an APA, which will be comparable to the sour from a grain total perspective, but not the hop total obviously. I will attach the APA recipe, and I plan to brew this three consecutive times with a goal to fill my secondary at least 2 of the three brews. Hopefully all three! If I can nail 5G into secondary with this, the sour, if anything will produce more beer due to less hop soakage.

I'm going to get started as soon as my hop orders arrive, hopefully within the next two weeks or so.

This will be my log, if you will. Hopefully, all of the recorded data from each brew day will help hone my skills, as well as possibly reveal some flaws in my process.
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Last edited by Rick on 16 Oct 2013, 23:53, edited 11 times in total.
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Post #2 made 10 years ago
by Rick
Oops, here is the report ...

The recipe is technically my own design. I used Maine Beer Co's MO as inspiration in the grain bill, easily one of my favorite APA's. The hop schedule is completely different.






[center]BIABacus Pre-Release 1.3I RECIPE REPORT[/center]
[center]BIAB Recipe Designer, Calculator and Scaler.[/center]
[center](Please visit http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the latest version.)[/center]
[center]Reliance APA V1.0[/center]

Recipe Overview

Style: APA
Source Recipe Link:

Original Gravity (OG): 1.052
IBU's (Tinseth): 46
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 0.89
Colour: 11 EBC = 5.6 SRM
ABV%: 5.7

Efficiency into Boil (EIB): 83.1 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 71.3 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash)

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 90 mins at 65 C = 149 F
Boil: 90 min
Ferment: 11 days at 19 C = 66.2 F

Volumes & Gravities
(Note that VAW below is the Volume at Flame-Out (VFO) less shrinkage.)

Total Water Needed (TWN): 33.35 L = 8.81 G
Volume into Boil (VIB): 31.35 L = 8.28 G @ 1.042
Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW): 24.29 L = 6.42 G @ 1.052
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 20.82 L = 5.5 G @ 1.052
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 19.28 L = 5.09 G @ 1.008 assuming apparent attenuation of 85 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

Note: If extracts, sugars or adjuncts are not followed by an exclamation mark, go to http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (needs link)

88.2% 2-Row USA (4 EBC = 2 SRM) 4510 grams = 9.94 pounds!
4.9% Crystal 40L (79 EBC = 40.1 SRM) 251 grams = 0.55 pounds!
3.5% CaraPils (2.6 EBC = 1.3 SRM) 177 grams = 0.39 pounds!
3.5% RedWheat (4.6 EBC = 2.3 SRM) 177 grams = 0.39 pounds!

The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

19.2 IBU Columbus Pellets (14.6%AA) 12 grams = 0.423 ounces at 90 mins (First Wort Hopped)
10.5 IBU Amarillo Pellets (8.7%AA) 28 grams = 0.988 ounces at 0 mins (30m Hop Stand)
8.5 IBU Citra Pellets (14.1%AA) 14 grams = 0.494 ounces at 0 mins (30m Hop Stand)
7.8 IBU Simcoe Pellets (13%AA) 14 grams = 0.494 ounces at 0 mins (30m Hop Stand)

Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash) for 90 mins at 65 C = 149 F

Mashout for for 10 mins at 77 C = 170.6 F

Miscellaneous Ingredients

1/2 Tab Whirfloc (Boil) 5 Mins - Clarity

Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Chilling Method: Immersion Chiller (Employed 30 mins after boil end.)

Fermentation& Conditioning

Fermention: Safale US-05 for 11 days at 19 C = 66.2 F

Secondary Used: Y
Crash-Chilled: N
Filtered: N
Req. Volumes of CO2: 2.25

Condition for 21 days.
Consume within 6 months.

Special Instructions/Notes on this Beer

1.) FO/12min = 30 min hop stand bittering adjustment. 2.) Phase #1 Dry Hop - 28g Amarillo, 21g Citra, 15g Simcoe one day after fall of high krausen in primary for 3-4 days. Phase #2 Dry Hop 28g Amarillo, 21g Simcoe, 15g Citra in secondary for 4 days
Last edited by Rick on 16 Oct 2013, 23:58, edited 14 times in total.
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Post #3 made 10 years ago
by Rick
gah, just realized this file isn't 1.3i, so I'll switch that over when I get a minute.

edit: ... aaand done
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Post #4 made 10 years ago
by mally
Rick - I am just summarising here;
The BIABacus says your FPL should be approx 0.4G, but you are in fact losing approx 1G (2.5 times as much), and you suspect this could be due to higher gravity, or dry hopping?

I only asked a similar question a few days ago to the guys that dry hop about what they do etc. but have not heard a definitive answer yet.
If you are dry hopping with a large amount, I can see that your FPL will be larger than what the BIABacus predicts, unless of course you are recovering the wort prior to fermentation.

I have dry hopped on a few occasions, with small amounts, though each time I have sieved the wort through a filter & Voile bag, and with sanitised gloves squeezed the remains out.

In fact if you read my thread here, my KFL reducing technique is almost identical.

Does any of that sound applicable?
Last edited by mally on 17 Oct 2013, 05:44, edited 2 times in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #5 made 10 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
Hey Rick, I have been pondering your posts about low volumes in the VIF and your post #1 shows high pellet hops, 10oz and 14oz, respectively.

I lost exactly 1 gallon using 16 ozs of hops. See here; http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... 183#p31768 No telling how much I would have saved, volume wise, if I could have squeezed my hop bag.

The BIABacus doesn't account for hop absorption.

You should know more after you brew your recipe posted here. Maybe you can get a paint strainer bag to use for pellet hops and squeeze this bag.
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Post #6 made 10 years ago
by Rick
mally wrote:Rick - I am just summarising here;
The BIABacus says your FPL should be approx 0.4G, but you are in fact losing approx 1G (2.5 times as much), and you suspect this could be due to higher gravity, or dry hopping?

I only asked a similar question a few days ago to the guys that dry hop about what they do etc. but have not heard a definitive answer yet.
If you are dry hopping with a large amount, I can see that your FPL will be larger than what the BIABacus predicts, unless of course you are recovering the wort prior to fermentation.
Indeed, I wouldn't bat an eye if the FPL was slightly larger due to dry hops. For the Black IPA, I'm down over a gallon already, and only have dry hopped with 2oz so far in primary. Volume there was 5.38G, and only 4.2G made it to secondary. I'm very pleased with how racking went, too. Phase #2 dry hops are currently doing their thing in secondary, 4oz worth. Last batches phase #2 had 3oz(additional 3oz in primary), and I really didn't see much loss from secondary to bottling bucket.

I must confess though, I was trusting the factory graduation lines on my buckets back then .. so it's hard to say that last line with a straight face. I'll be more careful when I bottle this weekend. My fermenter lines are spot on, but I have not gone through the process of proving out the bottling bucket yet. Still, my primary is proven, and I have definitely lost 1.2G for this current batch.

If interested, I use Matt Brynildson's dry hopping technique. Being a newb, I am prone to doing what my brewing heroes do, until I can try other methods to find out what I like best. I realize that this technique kinda rushes the beer off the yeast cake, so if my first batch of this APA doesn't improve on FPL I will throw the dry hops into the final week of a 3-4 week primary to see if the trub will compact a bit more.

Here are some links I have bookmarked if you are not already familiar with the dry hopping technique.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/multi-s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... ost4785573
http://handsonbrewing.com/brewers-refer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... roper-way/
I have dry hopped on a few occasions, with small amounts, though each time I have sieved the wort through a filter & Voile bag, and with sanitised gloves squeezed the remains out.

In fact if you read my thread here, my KFL reducing technique is almost identical.

Does any of that sound applicable?
I did mention to PP, that I would wash my bag quick so I could use it as a hop sock for the boil. I almost did it this time, but I wasn't 100% the fabric could survive ... didn't want to take the chance. I'm also kinda weird about losing some oils to a hopsock. My believies want me to keep everything free in there, but hey ... I'm willing to experiment for compromise.

With that said, I transferred into my fermenter this time only using a rather coarse strainer. My guess is a lot of trub got through here, so I will also have to use my bag for this. I have a smaller bag that I made, which I put around the base of my siphon for this purpose, but it clogs instantly. I had forgotten that the same thing happened last batch, and brew night was running WAYYY too late ... so I didn't do well with the transfer. My cognitive dissonance kicked in, and I thought to myself "Ah, well .. yeast likes trub, so HERE!" :idiot:

5.38G is a good number, but if a lot of that was trub .. something would have happened before then to reduce my volume. Hrmph ...

Kudos to your hoptainer, that's an awesome idea. I'm a Machinist by trade, and I may have to whip something up if I ever try to no-chill. I live not so far from Troegs' Brewery, so I'm quite familiar with what a Hop back is.
Last edited by Rick on 17 Oct 2013, 06:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #7 made 10 years ago
by Rick
Mad_Scientist wrote:Hey Rick, I have been pondering your posts about low volumes in the VIF and your post #1 shows high pellet hops, 10oz and 14oz, respectively.

I lost exactly 1 gallon using 16 ozs of hops. See here; viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2183#p31768 No telling how much I would have saved, volume wise, if I could have squeezed my hop bag.

The BIABacus doesn't account for hop absorption.

You should know more after you brew your recipe posted here. Maybe you can get a paint strainer bag to use for pellet hops and squeeze this bag.
I really do hope this is the answer, because dry hopping would be one of few things that would justify the loss to me.

This current 1.18G loss would also be from 10oz total, since the final 4oz would not have been introduced yet at the time I measured the volume.

I like the paint strainer bag idea. I have not seen one, but I understand they are more coarse a fabric? If this is the case, I might feel better about using it as a hop sock for the boil. Plus, I hear they are pretty cheap!

Also, I've read through that thread at least twice already. Great setup.
Last edited by Rick on 17 Oct 2013, 06:45, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #8 made 10 years ago
by PistolPatch
I'm short on time again so here only two things to offer here...

1. I'm confused on whether you think the loss is being caused by dry hopping or not? Post #6 seems to say that isn't the answer but post #7 says you hope it might be - lol! (10 oz's is a massive amount of hops!!!!!!!!)

2. More importantly, if you have a set of bathroom scales, fill your fermenting vessel with 10 kilograms of water. This should show up as 10 litres on your fermentor's scale. You'd be surprised at how many things are sold with dodgy scaling.

Please let us know what you find on number two if you can.

:peace:
PP
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Post #9 made 10 years ago
by Rick
PistolPatch wrote:I'm short on time again so here only two things to offer here...

1. I'm confused on whether you think the loss is being caused by dry hopping or not? Post #6 seems to say that isn't the answer but post #7 says you hope it might be - lol! (10 oz's is a massive amount of hops!!!!!!!!)

2. More importantly, if you have a set of bathroom scales, fill your fermenting vessel with 10 kilograms of water. This should show up as 10 litres on your fermentor's scale. You'd be surprised at how many things are sold with dodgy scaling.

Please let us know what you find on number two if you can.

:peace:
PP

1. Confused? Me too! :headhit: I think what you're witnessing is my coming around that this might be it, or at least part of it. My own limited observations of dry hop absorption were not intended to be dismissive, especially since I was just using my eyes. I was more implying "if this is it, I'd be surprised".

It's also feasible to think that the 8oz I used for boil/flame out hops in the BIPA took away a lot of clean wort, so squeezing those out like mally and MS mentioned is going to happen from now on. If I had done that, and also been better with trub management I possibly would have still ended with the same fermenter volume. Well, in a 'perfect world' anyway. Of course, there would be less trub and more beer though.

Previous batch of IPA only used 3.5 oz of boil/flame out hops, so the difference between the two beers would be substantial when looking from this angle. From brew #1 to #2 I increased my VIF by a half gallon, more than doubled the kettle hops, and the result was roughly .25G more beer. There are other variables of course, but the trub management was the same at least.

Since I hate mysteries, I think we can go with this theory for now (and the sake of my sanity :shoot: ).

2. I'm with you on that, It'll be the first thing I do when I get home tonight. I have done this with my kettle(so I could trust head space measurements), primary/bucket and 5 gal secondary/better bottle. Only the bottling bucket remains.
Last edited by Rick on 17 Oct 2013, 19:24, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #10 made 10 years ago
by Rick
This post ended up being irrelevant to the thread, so I deleted contents to avoid confusion.
Last edited by Rick on 10 Dec 2013, 00:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #11 made 10 years ago
by thughes
Hey Rick, while this doesn't solve your problem it is a solution: If you are concerned with excessive headspace in your secondary you can add sterilized glass marbles to increase volume and eliminate the headspace.

---Todd
WWBBD?
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Post #12 made 10 years ago
by Rick
thughes wrote:Hey Rick, while this doesn't solve your problem it is a solution: If you are concerned with excessive headspace in your secondary you can add sterilized glass marbles to increase volume and eliminate the headspace.

---Todd

Well aren't you awesome?

Sometimes I'm too German for my own good, heh. Practical solutions rarely pop into my head when I have lots of time to analyze the details. Thanks!

This takes off the pressure at least, but ya'll understand if I can't help my genetics by going crazy a while longer, eh?!
Last edited by Rick on 18 Oct 2013, 01:11, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #13 made 10 years ago
by Rick
Rick wrote:
2. I'm with you on that, It'll be the first thing I do when I get home tonight. I have done this with my kettle(so I could trust head space measurements), primary/bucket and 5 gal secondary/better bottle. Only the bottling bucket remains.

Got side tracked last night, and never got around to this. Blah, apparently re-integrating myself back into society after a week on Mt. Desert Island is a thing. I'm rather introverted, and wanted to shut myself in for a recharge by way of routine .. but my friends got me out last night for grilling, scotch and cigars. Late night, but it was nice.

I'm competing in a 10k event on Saturday morning (have to pick up my bib tonight), and have an Open Gate Farm Tour to do with the lady on Sunday. I should be able to squeeze in bottling on Sat afternoon and into the evening. I'll get that measurement first thing.
Last edited by Rick on 18 Oct 2013, 20:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #14 made 10 years ago
by Rick
Bottling went well. I ended up with twenty five 12 oz bottles, nine 22oz bombers, and one swing top 750ml.

Bottling bucket was proven to be accurate, pretty surprised that both of my buckets are dead on.

I squeezed out the 4oz dry hop sediment from secondary, and got just over a half liter of beer. Pretty crazy, more than I thought pellets could hold. Squeezing the kettle hops would have gotten me twice that amount, and likely netted me two full cases.

Hopefully trub management can make up the rest of it. If not, I suppose leaving in primary for longer will be considered, or possibly upping to 6gal batches if my impatience doesn't allow it.

Once I get repeated results, I can start experimenting without use of secondary.
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Post #15 made 10 years ago
by mally
Yes Rick; it's them thirsty hops!

In the words of Todd (Thughes) - you gotta squeeze them like they owe you money!
Well IMHO anyway.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #16 made 10 years ago
by Rick
mally wrote:Yes Rick; it's them thirsty hops!

In the words of Todd (Thughes) - you gotta squeeze them like they owe you money!
Well IMHO anyway.

Sage advice!

All of you have been a huge help, can't thank you enough.

I lost exactly 1G of beer relative to the projected VIP to 14oz total hops (5.09G projected/ 4.09 actual). 4 of those oz were squeezed, and the rest not. MS had similar results with 16oz hops, so that soothes my neuroses about doing greater wrongs elsewhere in my process. This will improve some as my brewing skills do, but I accept some penalty to be necessary evil for extra hop deliciousness. The hopping techniques I've adopted for this style are really working against me in this regard, but the end product has really been worth it so far. I'm still in my infancy with brewing, so perhaps this obsession with flame out and dry hops will settle down over time as my stubbornness decreases.

I'm upping [Batch #1 of 3] APA to 6G VIF, and will update the file/report accordingly. I do have an extra 1G glass carboy from my Brooklyn kit, so I can use it as primary #2 if I end up with more than I think the bucket can handle.

I'll search the site to see what discussions I can find about fermcap. I'm pretty irrational about adding it, but it seems worthy of looking into, for future 6G batches of high gravity beers. My fermenter lid was QUITE convex during fermentation of this BIPA, and caked with krausen residue in the end. I'm surprised that I didn't lose anything through blow off.

The APA doesn't seem as ominous to try 6G on, so here we go ...
Last edited by Rick on 21 Oct 2013, 22:04, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #17 made 10 years ago
by Rick
post deleted, as I did not go this route with the experiment.
Last edited by Rick on 10 Dec 2013, 00:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #18 made 10 years ago
by Rick
Today is brew day for this APA. I'll attach a pic of the label I created for it.

The only thing I'm worried about is my brew water. I'll address this in my other thread, seems like a more appropriate place to me.
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Last edited by Rick on 07 Nov 2013, 23:03, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #19 made 10 years ago
by Rick
aaaand it's brewed (file is attached).

I got a bit more boil off than usual, and my KFL was lower than predicted. I expected to dilute because of this, but nope. I also think this means I have a lot of trub in the fermenter again, but we'll see.

I basically lined my bucket with the voile bag, siphoned enough to reduce kettle weight, dumped the rest in and squeezed the bag after it drained. I'll cross my fingers that I end with 5G in secondary. If not, I'm really going to have to decide whether going through the added hassle of trub management techniques is worth it. The transfer method I used last night was super quick and easy. I'd much rather see what I get here, and increase batch #2 size to compensate. This would mean I'd have to hold back some water, most likely. The mash volume was pretty close to the top of the kettle, but I'm comfortable going higher next time.
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Post #20 made 10 years ago
by Rick
Woohoo, hit my goal. Here's a picture of my secondary. The beer line is under my 5G mark, but the dry hops go up into the neck ... so I'll call it a win.

It finished at 1.01, which puts it at 5.4%abv. Pretty much nailed everything, which makes me happy .. and the flat beer tastes/smells great!

I'd like to get my second batch of this brewed before Thanksgiving, but I might not have the time. For batch #2 of 3 I plan to get all 45 IBU's from the FWH charge. I'll chill to 180F immediately after flame out instead of utilizing the bittering hop stand, then I will add flavor/aroma hops. This includes the same 2oz Qty from batch #1, plus all the dry hops from batch #1 combined and added to the kettle. No more hopping after that, no secondary. Just for experimentation sake, to see what gets to the final product. It'll be easier, and hopefully tasty enough to not go through the added work of batch #1.

Something like ...

The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

44.8 IBU Columbus Pellets (14.6%AA) 28 grams = 0.988 ounces at 90 mins (First Wort Hopped)
0.3 IBU Amarillo Pellets (8.7%AA) 70 grams = 2.469 ounces at 0 mins (180-160F hop stand 30 min)
0.2 IBU Citra Pellets (14.1%AA) 35 grams = 1.234 ounces at 0 mins (180-160F hop stand 30 min)
0.2 IBU Simcoe Pellets (13%AA) 35 grams = 1.234 ounces at 0 mins (180-160F hop stand 30 min)

Also, discussions here have lead me to experiment with checking Y in hopsock, which seems to predict my actual volumes more accurately. I'll brew to those values, and override evaporation rates since humidity and temps are low right now. I really feel like I'm getting dialed in, and feel confident that hop absorption was the big culprit to my initial worries here.
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Last edited by Rick on 16 Nov 2013, 08:16, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #22 made 10 years ago
by Rick
I brewed the 2nd and 3rd batches back to back on Saturday, and absolutely nailed all of the numbers again. Confidence is high my friends, confidence is high. I made a hop substitution, and stuck to the original brew method. I don't think I care too much for what the Citra hops are contributing in the first batch (Amarillo and Simcoe are the other aroma hops). Everyone else loves the beer, but I feel like it can better suit my vision with a different hop combination.

I swapped the Citra out with Galaxy, since they happened to be the same AA%, also both are said to be tropical .. (plus I really love that hop). I'd like to mix Galaxy with another dry hop, and since I have 2 batches I can try two combinations for maximum experimentation within my confines. My first IPA was all Galaxy, and pretty amazing I thought. So that is in the books already. Plus, another reason for two dry hops is that I'm kinda hoarding what Galaxy I can .. since I likely cannot get it again until next season.

My gut tells me this place has a lot of experience with Galaxy, so which secondary dry hop would you choose to pair with from my inventory? I'm going to use a total of 4oz over two additions, FYI.

- Ahtanum
- Amarillo
- Cascade
- Centennial
- Chinook
- Columbus
- Simcoe

With that said, it was a 12hr long brew day. My buddy was helping me, and somehow he allowed a pint worth of grains to make it to (and through) the boil while I was out getting dinner. Ugh, I really thought he was ready. Both hydro samples tasted identical, so I'm not too worried just yet about any "off" flavors that may come from that one.

Finally, second batch end of boil was less vigorous than I like. Propane was running low, but it seemed to be enough to hit the same evaporation rate. Aww yeah, 10 gallons of beer fermenting vigorously .. as I type this. Bubbling music to my ears!
Last edited by Rick on 10 Dec 2013, 00:41, edited 2 times in total.
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