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BIABacus - estimated OG based on grain entered?

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by madmatt
So let me start by saying as a new member that the BIABacus looks very powerful, great job! I will be using on my next batch. But my question is in regards to how I currently use brewing software for new recipes.

Entering in a known recipe into BIABacus looks very straight forward. However, many times I do not have a recipe and start from scratch. So I start by adding in x amount of grain into the software. The software then shows me what my estimated OG is. I increase said grain until I reach the numbers I want.

With BIABacus, this does not seem to be the case. Am I missing something, or is this not a part of the spreadsheet? I downloaded one of the already filled out copies. I changed the grain amounts but estimated OG numbers do not change.

If not part of the spreadsheet, What do you recipe designers use for calculating estimated OG, besides good old hand calculations or another piece of software?

Basically what I am saying is I rely on software for recipe creation because math is hard... :)
Last edited by BIABrewer on 29 Apr 2014, 17:25, edited 7 times in total.
Reason: [Testing how ticking first post affects things.] Topic is answerd so needed ticking. Always edit and tick your original post when your question is answered. More info buried in "The Best Way to Start & Manage a New Topic."

Post #2 made 12 years ago
by Yeasty
Hi Matt

Pat might have a better solution/answer, here's my effort :lol:

In section C you enter your fermentables, you also can enter the original recipe OG or a desired OG ( I'd like to try an OG of: )

If you use the I'd like to try an OG of: box for your desired OG and enter your grains in the Original Fermentable Bill Design section the What will you will use section will populate with the amounts scaled to you equipment.

The percentages will show your grain ratio's so you can see if your recipe is balanced.

Hope this helps

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 26 Apr 2014, 05:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #4 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there Matt and welcome to the forum :peace:,

If you have used other software, one of the hardest things to get used to in the BIABacus is that it is actually easier to use. It has also been designed in a manner that educates the user correctly. Your question is a great example of this...

In other programs, when designing a recipe, you do exactly as you wrote. You type in some grain amounts and your OG changes. This is a laborious game of twenty questions and is not the correct way to design a recipe. You have been forced to do it that way though due to the limitations of the software you have been using. The correct way however is to...

1. Decide on your OG first (what Yeasty mentioned above although this can go on the left hand side of Section C).

2. Consider the ratio of grains you wish to use in the recipe design. Type the grain and its percentage on the left hand side of Section C and on the right, you will see the actual weights you will need.

3. Decide on your bitterness level and type those in the second line of Section D.

4. Consider when and where you want to add your hops (a bit like working out the ratio of the grains). Put this on the left hand side and the right hand side will tell you how much you will need for that recipe.

In other words, instead of wondering what OG and bitterness you will get using x ingredients, you make a conscious decision, "This is the OG and IBU's I want to achieve."

The BIABacus design/foundation is totally different from other software and this means that nearly every aspect of design and/or scaling is easier, faster and far more powerful.

Hope that makes things a bit easy for you and apologies that we still don't have the BIABacus help written. We are basically trying to solve one forum technological problem. Once that is sorted, we'll have the help up quite quickly.

Cheers,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 26 Apr 2014, 06:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #5 made 12 years ago
by madmatt
OH, well, now that makes total sense to me :)

Actually, this is very very easy if you think about the left side of section C as a "ratio" of one malt to another. Then the qty required shows up on the right side of C.

I knew I had to be missing something. Thank you very much for the help. I will keep working through this on my next brew and see how it works for me.

Post #6 made 12 years ago
by rmedved84
I have been wondering about this as well. Your answer makes sense for the most part, however I am still confused how the biabacus calculates the amount of grain needed to hit your OG since the PPG of each grain is different. I have been staring a the spreadsheet for a while assuming there is an obvious answer... I just haven't found it.

Post #7 made 12 years ago
by Rick
rmedved84 wrote:I have been wondering about this as well. Your answer makes sense for the most part, however I am still confused how the biabacus calculates the amount of grain needed to hit your OG since the PPG of each grain is different. I have been staring a the spreadsheet for a while assuming there is an obvious answer... I just haven't found it.
The BIABacus works to a default setting, which in most cases is very accurate. You can customize in sec. Y if needed.
Last edited by Rick on 12 May 2014, 04:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #8 made 11 years ago
by rmedved84
So now I get how the grains calculations work. Could someone explain the hop calculations? specifically with flameout or dry hop additions? When creating a recipe from scratch, I select desired IBU and I what Biabacus adjusts the amounts I enter to reach that IBU. What I don't understand, is what it adjust my amounts for flameout and dry hop additions even though I am not expecting to get any IBU's from those additions.

Post #9 made 11 years ago
by Rick
rmedved84 wrote:So now I get how the grains calculations work. Could someone explain the hop calculations? specifically with flameout or dry hop additions? When creating a recipe from scratch, I select desired IBU and I what Biabacus adjusts the amounts I enter to reach that IBU. What I don't understand, is what it adjust my amounts for flameout and dry hop additions even though I am not expecting to get any IBU's from those additions.

What I like to do for this, is delete "desired IBU".

Look up in section K., take the VAW figure for your recipe and plug that into Sec. D's "The original recipe has a VAW of __". Some versions will tell you the VAW just under this line, not sure which you are working from.

Once you do this, the BIABacus will tell you exactly what your hop bill edits will contribute instead of scaling it.
Last edited by Rick on 24 Sep 2014, 19:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #10 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
What Rick is saying, is that if you follow his instructions, is that the left and right hand sides of the BIABcus will match exactly unless you happen to change the form, method, AA% or the time on the right hand side. If you do change one of those things, the BIABacus will alter the weight of that hop addition accordingly.

However, I don't think that is fully what you are asking.

I think you are asking why the BIABacus would adjust a hop addition that has a zero IBU value. There are two things to consider...

Consideration 1 - Volume

If you send me a recipe and my brewery is the same as yours but twice as big, then I will want to use twice the amount of flame-out and dry-hops that you use.

Consideration 2 - Oils

Firstly, hop estimation formulas are incorrect when they say that no bitterness is added by an addition after flame-out. It is a very complicated and grey area (see here and the links within). Flavour and aroma are contributed by various oils but we cannot put all these oils into software so we rely on the major one, alpha acids, whilst making the assumption (and hoping) that if alpha acids are lower in this years crop then the other oils will be lower as well but...

That last sentence will not always be true, that much I do know. As to how wildly it can vary, I don't know.

Fault in All Software incl. BIABacus Pre-Release

No existing software separates the scaling of dry hops from, 'hot hops' which is yet another area where recipe integrity can be compromised. The first public release of the BIABacus will not have this error. In other words, 'hot hops' will be scaled to VAW and cold hops (dry hops) will be scaled to VIF. (Can't wait to re-write those formulas :roll:).

Make sense now?
Last edited by PistolPatch on 24 Sep 2014, 20:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #12 made 11 years ago
by Rick
joshua wrote:Good Day Rick, I do not want to blow my own Horn......

Check this link for some of the Hop oils "PP" is Talking about, and What temperatures they are Soluble.

viewtopic.php?f=150&t=2215

Good Luck!!

I have read that many times before, good stuff.

I also tend to not like scaling hops on my tried and true hoppy ale recipes. Mally once made a point that scaling relative to alpha can make for some very large differences of oil content in the beer (hope I paraphrased that properly).

I tend to adjust my bittering regimen, and generally leave the aroma hops (late boil, so also some bittering in my case) to the same weight value regardless of alpha content (unless volume changes of course).

Still not perfect, but I feel like there is more control this way based on my brewing techniques. Which, I generally have a relatively small bittering charge, and get the rest from a 190-212F hop stand.
Last edited by Rick on 24 Sep 2014, 20:45, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #14 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
There are many, many levels of right and wrong answers here. When I say, "here," I mean, depending on the brewer...

A Mature Commercial and/or Craft-Brewery

They will have done umpteenth batches of the beer. They will know the specs of the hops (all the different oils of that season). Because they are brewing the same beer continuously, they are able to constantly see differences. If they are skilled brewers, they will know how, intuitively or scientifically, to adjust things.

Home Brewers

We have better storage conditions (if you buy right and store right) than are available to the pros but we have far less knowledge of the oils on a purchase. Working on weight for flavour and aroma hops might work this year but it might not work the next.

Here's A Question For Us All..

I think it is this year's season of Hallertau but will have to check but the AA% of some of the crop is about 2.5% and the other half is about 8%. What do you do?

[This would be an interesting one to be able to get the other oil specs from. I'll see if I can get those but most of the time you won't be able to so the question above still remains.]

I think often we home brewers try and pretend we can turn grey areas into black and white instead of just realising that they are grey areas. Pro brewers know there are grey areas and just brew through them getting as close as they can.

Bittering hops are fairly easy. Flavour and aroma hops are much harder but I feel bad in writing that because even if you don't get the exact same match of flavour and aroma hops as the brewer you are trying to copy, the beer will probably end up being excellent. The smell of the rose might vary but it will still smell like a rose ;).
Last edited by PistolPatch on 24 Sep 2014, 21:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #15 made 11 years ago
by Rick
The smell of the rose might vary but it will still smell like a rose.
Exactly!

I feel like I've accepted this as a grey area, as I do not even feel compelled to track every bit of the hop contributions. Something tells me that I would just unlock more questions than I gained in answers. Perhaps one day I'll dive into that rabbit hole, for now I'll go on experience.

My "believies" tell me to handle bittering and aroma somewhat independently, just to ensure that I don't short my aroma. I'll gladly increase aroma hop totals from one recipe to the nex (based on alpha alone), but you won't find me going the other way. Not oncce!
Last edited by Rick on 24 Sep 2014, 22:27, edited 1 time in total.
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