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BIAB 2 bag method

Post #1 made 14 years ago
by olaboss
I should have used "missed target OG" as a headline :dunno: .
I am learning and I just learned that you don't leave the lid on when boiling! OK good, I always thought that the calculator was way off on how much water to add in the beginning, but if I take the lid off and boil for 90 min perhaps it will be perfect with the evaporation?

The evaporation rate is something that confuses me. I live at 8200 feet(2500 meter)altitude. Any calculator taking altitude into account?

The beer was going to have an OG of 1.050 but I had that number even after the 90 minute mash before squeezing my 2 bags! I just continued like nothing had happened.

After 90 minutes boiling i took some wort out of the spout and it was 1.058 (at room temp).

When all was done I had a german alt beer with way high OG. I sampled the wort and it wasn't nearly as sweet as previous batches, although i understand that this beer is different with a lot of dark grains. It tasted like black tea almost.

What could I have done to fix this? Don't say add water because I had about 1/2 US gallon (1,9 L) too much wort that I threw away to be able to fit it in a 6.5 gal(24.6L) carboy with some head room.

I guess I could have used the wort for starters, but I didn't think about it then.

Ola
Last edited by olaboss on 16 Nov 2011, 09:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #2 made 14 years ago
by stux
The best thing to do is measure your Start of Boil volume and your End of Boil volume. The differnece is your total evaporation figure.

Divide by boil-time and multiply by 60 and you get your Evaporation/Hr.

Enter that in the calculator and it will predict more accurately for next time.

Your starting gravity would've been more or less the same as before or after the squeeze, you just end up with more beer ;)
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #3 made 14 years ago
by Yeasty
Hi olaboss

2500m wow I bet the view is great from up there :shock: .

I would agree with what stux has said but keep an eye on the Approximate mash volume figure in Cell B26.

I'm also a bit puzzled why you had to much wort for your carboy, I would have thought you would have been short on FV volume with the evaporation you are getting. I brewed yesterday and my preboil volume was an extra 3L down due to extra grain absorption :think: or a cock up with my starting volume :idiot: . I only just managed to get my target volume into FV. Do you get my thinking ?

Can you post the calculator you used, your brewing figures and Pot specs ? so I can look into this for you.

:salute:

Yeasty
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Post #4 made 14 years ago
by olaboss
Thanks for your responses guys. Yes, Yeasty great views! I will post more when I am home after work tonight. Ola
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Post #5 made 14 years ago
by olaboss
Right now is a bad time for me to think :scratch: I woke up at 03:15 AM and my brain doesn't work.
Anyway, I can try to post the calculator with my added things and perhaps something will come out of it :)
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Post #6 made 14 years ago
by Yeasty
I've got your sheet and had a quick glance hopefully I will have time to look through it properly tonight.
Are all the values the actual figures from the brew day ?
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Post #7 made 14 years ago
by Yeasty
I've just re-read your OP along with the calculator and you've said this:
olaboss wrote:After 90 minutes boiling i took some wort out of the spout before squeezing my 2 bags and it was 1.058 (at room temp)
You haven't boiled with your bags still in the kettle have you ?? :shock:
Last edited by Yeasty on 16 Nov 2011, 02:52, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #8 made 14 years ago
by olaboss
Sorry confused :blush: . I did take a sample just at the end of the mash and I still had the bags in. That sample was 1.050 and the sample I took at the end of the boil was 1.058
I had a lot of floaties in the wort then, would that affect the reading? I spun the hydrometer as is suggested to dislodge the bubbles forming on it.
Yes the figures are the actual figures. I found the recipe in the book "Brewing Classic Styles" by Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer. Page 106
Since I wanted to trust the calculator I scaled up the recipe to fit the grain bill that the calculator had. I may have goofed up there? :?:
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Post #9 made 14 years ago
by Lylo
I was quite suprised that the trub has little or no effect on the gravity readings.I took reading at the end of my last boil with lots of trub and another after a day in the cube with no trub.It made no difference to my readings.
AWOL

Post #10 made 14 years ago
by stux
Basically, if you're floating in the dead sea, other people floating around you don't affect how well you float...

Same applies to hydrometers floating in your wort sea ;)
Image
Last edited by stux on 16 Nov 2011, 11:45, edited 4 times in total.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #11 made 14 years ago
by Yeasty
We're getting there olaboss !! :lol:
olaboss wrote:I found the recipe in the book "Brewing Classic Styles" by Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer. Page 106
I've not got this book but I have the first 50 recipes in Beersmith2 format. Whats the recipe called and I'll see if I've got it.

:peace:

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 16 Nov 2011, 17:15, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #12 made 14 years ago
by olaboss
Basically, if you're floating in the dead sea, other people floating around you don't affect how well you float...

Same applies to hydrometers floating in your wort sea
:thumbs: Great analogy!
Recipe is under amber hybrids and it is a Northern German Alt Beer.
Last edited by olaboss on 16 Nov 2011, 21:47, edited 4 times in total.
Copying from a single source is called plagiarism, copying from multiple source is called research

Post #13 made 14 years ago
by olaboss
Do you guys ever take a recipe and just go with that? Is it neccesary to scale up recipes when brewing with BIAB method? I can see that I need to figure out the water needs.
Another thing, if the OG is too high is there a thought on how to fix that? I understand that if it is too low one can only add some DME.

Thanks for a great forum! I am enjoying this! I hardly ever write in fora like this but I realise it is very helpful for a beginner.
Ola
Copying from a single source is called plagiarism, copying from multiple source is called research

Post #14 made 14 years ago
by Yeasty
olaboss wrote:Do you guys ever take a recipe and just go with that? Is it neccesary to scale up recipes when brewing with BIAB method? I can see that I need to figure out the water needs.
Another thing, if the OG is too high is there a thought on how to fix that? I understand that if it is too low one can only add some DME.

Thanks for a great forum! I am enjoying this! I hardly ever write in fora like this but I realise it is very helpful for a beginner.
Ola
Its more of a case of matching the recipe to your equipment and efficiency. You may want more or less beer, stronger or weaker or you may get better or worse efficiency than the recipe designer. Plus with Biab you need to figure out the total water requirements from the start. 3V guys will sparge and stop when there runnings reach a certain gravity so they can have more water than they need in there HLT , although they still need to work out volumes so they have enough.

Glad your enjoying it, I've got your recipe in Beersmith 2 by the way so I'll have a good look at for you.

:thumbs:

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 17 Nov 2011, 02:57, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #15 made 14 years ago
by olaboss
Next recipe:
Mc Quaker oatmeal stout in the book "Brewing Classic Styles" by Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer. Page 169:
I will try to go with the recipe "as is" (well the base malt I increased by 27 grams :) )
Grain bill:
10 lb 4535 g British Pale Ale malt
1 lb 450 g Flaked oats (1oL)
0.75 lb 340 g Chocolate malt (350oL)
0.75 lb 340 g Victory malt (28oL)
0.5 lb 227 g Crystal (80oL)
0.5 lb 227 g Black roasted barley 500oL)

Hops Kent Golding 5% 1.8 oz or 51 g
Yeast White Labs WLP002 English Ale
Mash at 154oF or 68oC

My water needs I calculated like this:
Water for mash =1.5 quart/lb or 1.4 L/453 g For my grain bill(13.5 lb or 6123 g) that should come to 20.25 quart or 19.16 L
Water still in grains after mash=0.5 quart /lb or 473 ml/453 g
Evaporation (BIAB calculator) 5.7 quart/hour or 5.4 L/Hour

I get 8.12 gal or 30.7 L for one hour boil
or 8.9 gal or 33.7 L for a 90 minute boil

I attached the "MAXI BIAB calculator" the water requirements there says 21.93 gal!!! :nup: That's 83 liters!!

:think: It hurts my head to think like this
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Last edited by olaboss on 17 Nov 2011, 10:09, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #17 made 14 years ago
by stux
That version of the calculator doesn't automatically update the entered values when you switch units.

You're using 40" aka 1 metre wide kettle! which is boiling off over 9 gallons per hour ;)

which is why its wanting 21 gallons.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #18 made 14 years ago
by olaboss
:clap: You found it! I was just testing you guys :lol:
That's why I need to move back to Sweden where measurements make sense! So I changed it to 15,74 Inches which is 40 cm but it still want's me to use 10.31 gal which is............39 liters!
It feels too much!
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Post #19 made 14 years ago
by Lylo
That is about right.I had trouble with this too as I had always done kits and filled bottles.
I can still just barely fit this volume into my 44 liter kettle,but have found it much easier to go with a 19 liter(5 us gal) brew length.Everything fits better and it all fits into my cornies!It was a great day for, me that first batch with out bottles!
AWOL

Post #20 made 14 years ago
by olaboss
Lylo wrote:That is about right.I had trouble with this too as I had always done kits and filled bottles.
I can still just barely fit this volume into my 44 liter kettle,but have found it much easier to go with a 19 liter(5 us gal) brew length.Everything fits better and it all fits into my cornies!It was a great day for, me that first batch with out bottles!
Thanks LYLO. I guess you are right. I will go with the 5 gal. My pot can handle the volume as long as it is less than 15 gal. I have a 6.5 gal carboy and a couple of 5 gal carboys. Now when I changed it to 5 gal it fits well with my own calculations.
What is a "cornie"?
Last edited by olaboss on 17 Nov 2011, 21:35, edited 4 times in total.
Copying from a single source is called plagiarism, copying from multiple source is called research

Post #21 made 14 years ago
by Lylo
Cornelius kegs(cornies) are what Pepsi and Coke used to shiop their syrup in to the restuarants and such to dispense the soda pop.Mostly phased out now by the companies and are quite available to us for beer dispensing. :drink:
AWOL

Post #22 made 14 years ago
by Yeasty
olaboss wrote:The evaporation rate is something that confuses me. I live at 8200 feet(2500 meter)altitude. Any calculator taking altitude into account?
I've been thinking about this along with Biabrewers request for evaporation rates. Now the higher up you go the lower the temperature is required to bring water to the boil and you can't get water to heat up past whatever its boiling point is at a specific altitude, (I know this is true cos I saw some guy trying to cook potatoes on Mount Everest and it took him ages. Discovery Channel rocks !!)

I originally thought that your evaporation rate would increase with altitude, due to the lower air pressure, but I don't think this is true. Drier air and more wind is probably the reason. Has anyone looked into this before ? or am I barking up the wrong tree..(or just barking)

:think:

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 19 Nov 2011, 04:18, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #23 made 14 years ago
by hashie
Yeasty wrote:
I've been thinking about this along with Biabrewers request for evaporation rates. Now the higher up you go the lower the temperature is required to bring water to the boil and you can't get water to heat up past whatever its boiling point is at a specific altitude, (I know this is true cos I saw some guy trying to cook potatoes on Mount Everest and it took him ages. Discovery Channel rocks !!)

I originally thought that your evaporation rate would increase with altitude, due to the lower air pressure, but I don't think this is true. Drier air and more wind is probably the reason. Has anyone looked into this before ? or am I barking up the wrong tree..(or just barking)

:think:

Yeasty
My thoughts, few as they are, are that it would be to do with the air density. At higher altitudes the volume of air is less than at lower altitudes. Therefore there is less air to absorb the moisture (boil off).

Air is compressible and is at it's greatest density at sea level. It is compressed by itself (air has mass) and with our atmosphere at approx. 100 km, that's a lot of weight pushing down (14.7lb psi). Sort of explains why we don't fall off, the mass of the atmosphere holds us on the ground.
Gravity doesn't suck, air blows!
Last edited by hashie on 19 Nov 2011, 04:40, edited 4 times in total.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #24 made 14 years ago
by Yeasty
Hi olaboss

I've had a look at your German Altbier recipe, and its a bit of a :scratch: and I can't put my finger on anything in particular, the grain bill isn't to far away from the recipe I've got and your figures on your efficiency sheet seem to be ok, you seem to have got more into FV but with a bit of careful syphoning you can sometimes get more than planned. Your brew length figure doesn't make sense though as its bigger than your voume into FV. I assume this is a typo ?

I know this doesn't get to the bottom of what went wrong, especially the preboil gravity which is a bit of a mystery as your preboil volume was on the button. Is it possible that your grain bill was bigger than you thought ?

I see you are already planning your next brew which looks great, make sure you take some accurate measurements and you'll soon dial in your figures and it will become less of a worry. Don't forget to let us know how it goes (including volume figures) :thumbs:

:salute:

Yeasty
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Post #25 made 14 years ago
by olaboss
Hi there Yeasty. Yes I believe that I have to measure more carefully in the future. I have not been measuring the volume besides when filling the pot in the beginning. Now I marked on a stick so I can measure throughout the process. I did put next recipe in the MAXI-BIAB calculator and the "water needed" measurement was on the spot as I wrote in the post 8.9 Gal or 33.7 liters for 90 minutes brew (without lid) :-)
Thanks again for your comments. I just sampled my "hoppiness in an IPA" from the book "Brewing Classic Styles" by Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer Page 186.
It tastes very good!! This is the one I call RIP Ale II since it was made on the day the world was going to come to an end :-)the second time! Rapture India Pale Ale II.
Now I am excited because my wife who is the best cook I have ever seen said that she would like to brew beer. She wants to try small batches like a gallon=3.8 liters
I think she can have some interesting brews in the future!
Sorry for the long post! I wanted to know what to do with some wild Cascade hops that I picked a month ago? I love hoppiness in a beer and I think I will use them for dry-hopping. Can you (experienced brewers) see any risks with dry hopping if you don't know the IBU rating?
Any suggestions?
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