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Some more No Chill Questions..

Post #1 made 10 years ago
by ford
Hello fellow brewers!

I'm new here. Searching for No Chill answers is what led me to this site and I'm glad I found it. Let me quickly explain my setup and why I have a few questions about how the No Chill method might work for me, or mayhap need to be modified.

I use the BIAB method on my stovetop. I make 2-2.5 gallon batches. My kettle is 16 quarts. No valve. My main fermenter is this
Speidel. http://morebeer.com/products/speidel-pl ... 2-gal.html I also have an HDPE three gallon bucket on the way as an extra fermenter. It is the 5 rating and can handle high temperatures.

First I see most people seem to send the wort from their kettle via a valve to their cube. I don't have a valve, and I really don't want to spend the money on a better kettle right now that already has one. My kettle is stainless steel, but it is a fairly thin one, so I'm not sure it would be worth modifying.

My kettle is small enough to fit into my sink to receive a tap water bath... even with ice added it generally has taken me 35-45 minutes to get it down to 70 degrees fahrenheit. That is with a lot of stirring and monitoring and temperature taking. I'd love to skip this step or most of it.

Sorry this is so long. Here are some questions to start.


My Speidel has a temp rating of 140 degrees. It generally doesn't take long to get down to this range using the sink. Would it be ok to get the temp just below 140 and then transfer the wort to my Speidel and let it chill down on it's own from there? (I would use star-san inside the Speidel before transferring it.)




Is it ok to pour the wort from my kettle as the method of transfer? (even if I get a cube, would I be able to do it this way? I'd use silicon kitchen gloves to keep the heat from bothering me) Does anyone do it this way? I know if it was a larger batch, it would be near impossible to do it by pouring. ( I have a stainless steel funnel to help in the process)





If I was to get a cube, are there any out there that would work with my small batches? The five and six gallon sizes would have enormous head space. Something around 3-4 gallons would be much better.



Ok, those are enough questions to start. I apologize if it is too much reading! :dunno:
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Post #2 made 10 years ago
by thughes
ford, I would think that there is a bit of a danger allowing the wort to cool to 140F before transfering. The main premise with no-chill is filling the cube immediately after flame-out so that the near-boiling wort sanitizes the interior surfaces of the cube. Also, as it cools, there is a vacuum created which sucks in the sides of the cube and gives you a long-term visual check of whether you have an infection or not (the cube will swell with an infection).

That being said, why not build a chiller that you can use in your sink? I do 3 gallon batches and have an immersion chiller I made from 20 feet of 1/2" copper tubing. I can hook it up to the kitchen sink water spigot with a simple adaptor and get my wort chilled to pitching temps in @ 15 minutes. No-chill is great and I use it with my larger batches but have yet to find a proper cube to use for my 3 gallon batches.

Another option for you, if you want to no-chill and can find a proper size cube, would be a copper siphon/silicon tube/jiggler combination.

---Todd
WWBBD?
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Post #3 made 10 years ago
by ford
Thanks for the answers.

I knew as I read more about No Chill, it seemed I was facing some challenges which might be easier to defeat with a different method.


Would a normal sized immersion chiller fit into my 16 quart kettle?
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Post #4 made 10 years ago
by thughes
ford wrote:Would a normal sized immersion chiller fit into my 16 quart kettle?
Not sure, but copper is soft so you should be able to bend/strech it to fit.
Last edited by thughes on 24 Mar 2014, 09:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #5 made 10 years ago
by thylacine
"...Does anyone do it this way?...)

Yes. I have No-Chilled my last 14 stove-top batches and will continue doing so. The previous two years utilised a water bath as per your description.

My process includes:

1) Flame-off, immediate pouring of entire kettle (most anyway...) via funnel into cube. Latter is an ex-15litre FWK. Any splashing hasn't affected beer, at least no changes I can detect ;-)

2) Loosely add cube cap, use knee to squeeze majority of air out, tighten cap.

3) Invert cube upside down, leave ten minutes, return to upright position and leave at ambient temp till next day.

4) Place in temperature controlled appliance and leave another day to achieve pitching temp.

Further to simplicity, the cubes are also the fermenters. No more transferring. I keep temps at the yeasts' lower range and wait for krausen to begin dropping before I may elect to raise temps. Seven day cold conditioning @1celcius following fermentation, syphon into longnecks. Clear beer two weeks later.

Cheers

Post #6 made 10 years ago
by PistolPatch
Welcome aboard Ford,

Two things. Firstly, no-chilling a wort can have two purposes. You either don't have a chiller and want to pitch your beer asap* or you want to make your wort today but pitch it sometime in the future. The first thing I would like to know is what your goal is.

Secondly, if you want to pitch asap, then on that size kettle, you don't need a kettle. You can put such a size kettle in your laundry sink/tub and cool it there. Keep the lid on the kettle, cover it with a small towel, have a spoon/paddle protruding from them, agitate the wort occasionally and change the water three or four times.

On the last run, you could even put freezer blocks in the laundry sink and chill to lager pitching temps!

Keep it as simple as you can ford,
PP

* If your goal is to pitch asap then there are many options open to you. thylacine's situation muddies the waters a little. I would actually call that slow chilling in the fermentor but you can do that in the kettle as well.

Terminology!!!!!
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Post #7 made 10 years ago
by HbgBill
After listening to the interview on Basic Brewing regarding No-Chilling.. I was interested.. suspicious.. but interested.

Looked at US Plastics and the cubes they sold and decided to write to them regarding the heat they can take. Unless those of you that are pouring near boiling wort into the cubes are looking at something different, US Plastics said they are not designed to take liquids that hot. In fact, they say that the structure of the plastic changes at and above 180*. They do not recommend liquids over 140* in the cubes. If questions, here is the message from them:

Hello

The max working temp for these containers is 140°F. They will start to break down at 190°F.

Please feel free to contact us Monday-Friday 8:00 am-5:00 pm EST.

Candi
Tech Support
U.S. Plastic Corp.
http://www.usplastic.com
p (800) 537-9724

That said, and by coincidence, Basic Brewing had a PODcast today where Chris White was talking about no-chill. I think it bears listening to regarding the cautions of bad bacteria.

I can't seem to add the link so it works.. but, go to 'basicbrewing.com' and hit their 5-1-2014 podcast.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #8 made 10 years ago
by PistolPatch
Just re-reading this and realised I didn't read the question properly. Oops!

Sorry Ford. I now see you were already chilling in the sink. In light of that, I now see you wish to avoid the 45 minutes of work involved in chilling. Chilling still requires work. For example, if you use the cube and then a fermentor, you have to clean and sanitise the fermentor, That can involve a lot of water and effort. Some people ferment in the cube with all the trub however it is only anecdotal at this stage as to whether that method is okay for al beer styles. Similiarly, transferring hot wort and exposing it to oxygen, many people believe will cause problems. To avoid this, yu would need to buy a jiggler syphon and silicone hose.

So, chilling may still be your best option unless you wish to store the wort for long periods.

Hope this answer is a little more useful than my last one.

:peace:
PP

P.S. Bill, I am following up on that podcast as one thing was not investigated correctly. An Oxford professor wrote that botulism will, amongst other things, only occur in a low sugar environment. I asked that the author of the article to contact the professor before he published. This did not happen. Looks like I will have to do it. Great. Regardless, getting botulism from a cube if you transfer hot is about as likely as being hit by a part falling from an aeroplane.

Leave that with me.
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Post #9 made 10 years ago
by HbgBill
PP, agreed, I think your point of transferring hot will certainly avoid the issue.. However, coupled with the advice I received from US Plastics on the cube created the concern.. i.e., the temps called out by the plastic maker. I'm sure there is a safety factor by the plastics company.. but still.. seems a concern about integrity/leaching/etc.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #10 made 10 years ago
by ford
Thanks for the replies.

I just brewed this last weekend and used more ice in the sink......and I was able to get my wort down to 70 in about 20 minutes using a two bag system.....



I'm still just making small two gallon batches, so for the time being, I'll continue to use this method. If I move up to five gallon batches in the future, I am going to look into no chill again.

Thanks for all of the great information!
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Post #11 made 10 years ago
by BobBrews
HbgBill,

Did you listen to the Basic Brewing Radio series on brewing Toxicology? It was a three part series and the toxicologist didn't seem too worried about leaching plastic's? Also, the round (cubes) that U.S. Plastics is selling is widely used and I think they are trying to avoid any legal responsibility from no-chilling? It makes sense that they do it because it is cheap to just disavow everything and say "we don't recommend it". I would say it if I sold them! (even if I used them).
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Post #12 made 10 years ago
by madmatt
I have 2 of the US Plastics round "tight head pails" and so far they have worked very well. Before I filled them with wort the first time I filled them with super hot water and oxyclean overnight just to remove any surface residue. I've been brewing 10 gallon batches and splitting. Then ferment one quick and the next one after the first is done.

I just listened to the BBR podcast today with Chris White and Chris Colby as well, and it does give me concern about long term storage. I have stored several batches long term ( 2 weeks, 1 month ) and really did love having wort that I can ferment weeks later. It didn't seem that sugar content would make a difference unless you were at very high concentrations ( liquid malt extract ). I guess I am more concerned about botulism than I am about plastic leeching. Long term no-chill storage is probably successful depending on the person, technique, container, storage time etc. I think I will continue to do no-chill but as an overnight chill only.

Post #13 made 10 years ago
by BobBrews
madmatt,

I had a short talk with Chris Colby. He contacted me before he published the story and did the podcast. I pointed out that no one has had a problem before and the risk is minimal. Botulism comes from the dirt we stand on and hopefully we don't brew with dirt in our containers.

I have no problem with long term storage, but in reality. Who normally has a reason to do it for that length of time anyway. I do have a couple of the same containers you have with wort that I brewed in September of 2013. I have another from this January. I will ferment them both in a few weeks. I will be drinking the beer (live and on air) in June! So stay tuned for that!

I am no doctor nor chemist. I may be full of shit? Sure there is a chance of getting sick and dying (or worse, wasting beer!) But the chance that you will be eaten by a Polar bear this summer is there too! The odds are about the same! What are the odds of a car accident or getting sick from contaminated lettuce? All of these things are more dangerous than storing wort. No one has ever gotten sick from this (ever!) but yes! There is a chance if you are not clean!

20 people out of 310 million Americans got sick with botulism last year. Half were infants with underdeveloped immune systems. The other half were old that had weakened immune systems. 7.5 percent of them will die on average. How many got botulism from wort? None. How many from badly prepared food? all?

Also, people have to find things to write about. Whats better than degrading something that you never did before because it's new or different! Controversy lends itself to increased readership and advertising sales. I am just saying?

Here is my official disclosure statement! "Don't long term no-chill it may kill you." "If you want to do it? Do it at your own risk, don't risk hurting others!" Oh, I feel better now! Like I said before. There is always a chance.

We make jokes about people dying at picnics from bad potato salad. Potatoes come from the ground and have dirt in them "eyes". Maybe that's why we have had problems with potato salad in the past? Badly washed potatoes? :lol:

If you don't hear a podcast on BBR late this June?? Well You know... Dump your wort and run!
Last edited by BobBrews on 02 May 2014, 03:10, edited 1 time in total.
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tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
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Post #14 made 10 years ago
by HbgBill
Now Bob.. you are making light of something I'm putting up as an opportunity to learn. I have NO experience in No-Chill. My main point was not the botulism.. That was an adjunct to pouring warm vs hot wort into the container. The real issue I had.. BEFORE I heard Chris' interview.. was the integrity of the container. As I mentioned.. I emailed USPlastics and they said nothing over 140*.. and it begins to breakdown, or at least have some major changes at 180*. I'm unclear what the changes are.

If your experience disproves that.. as you stated above.. I might well try one of the smaller containers as a test.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #15 made 10 years ago
by BobBrews
HbgBill,

Are you referring to post #11 referring to your post #9 or my answer to post #12 with my post #13? Holy crapola this is getting complicated? In #13 I am only talking about the botulism stuff in the last post by madmatt #12 with long term storage. Nothing referring to you there. If I made it sound like I was responding to you I am sorry, I was not? No problems.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

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Post #16 made 10 years ago
by HbgBill
K.. I thought you were referring to my posts in #13. My mistake. I know you all are into no-chill and have a bunch of experience with it. I just couldn't figure how the plastic could hold up under 212* temps. Sorry.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #17 made 10 years ago
by madmatt
Sorry HbgBill, didn't mean to hijack the post if I did. The US plastics Tight Head Pail ( round ) containers are pretty heavy duty. They do get flexible when hot, but the integrity is very high. As far as breaking down at 180F who knows, the MFG probably has to list a safe temp thats 50% lower than what is probably actually safe. These things are formed at a higher temp than that. My containers always return to shape, so its definitely not melting the plastic or deforming it. YMMV

Post #18 made 10 years ago
by HbgBill
Thanks Matt.. you didn't hijack anything.. it appears to be an ongoing thread about no-chill... and I HAD to ask the question :D
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #19 made 10 years ago
by mally
From what I understand regarding Clostridium Botulinum (the bacteria that secretes botulinum toxin); As Bob says, it can be present in many of the foods/drinks we consume. However, I do not think it can survive in wort once it begins to ferment i.e. it is not alcohol tolerant.

I would "guess" that as long as you stick to drinking fermented wort instead of "raw" wort you will be fine!

As for plastics leaching, then who really knows. I do no-chill, but then I also cook with aluminium (aluminum).
I think you are right to question it though HbgBill, whether you will find an answer is another thing.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #20 made 10 years ago
by chiller
HDPE plastic cubes. Australians have been brewing no chill for many years. It works brilliantly. The problem with many on the American forums seems to be an in grained inability to do it as it was designed. The wort is not boiling at 100c/212f when transferred. The heat drops a few degrees immediately at flame out, and most people will whirlpool the kettle before runoff, however with the correct cube and the correct method your wort is good to go the next day or 12 months later.

And by the way a correctly passivated aluminium kettle is absolutely no different to a SS kettle. There is so much misinformation about homebrewing on the good ole interwebs. When you do no chill extend your brew quantity by a litre or 2 and collect a real wort starter in a new or uber clean self sealing glass "not used for pickle" jar. the heat will vac seal the lid and the contents will be pasteurized. Again ready to use the next day or 12 moths time.

Post #21 made 10 years ago
by PistolPatch
PistolPatch wrote:I am following up on that podcast as one thing was not investigated correctly. An Oxford professor wrote that botulism will, amongst other things, only occur in a low sugar environment. I asked that the author of the article to contact the professor before he published. This did not happen. Looks like I will have to do it. Great. Regardless, getting botulism from a cube if you transfer hot is about as likely as being hit by a part falling from an aeroplane.
I have written to the Oxford professor today who wrote this article.

Regardless of his answer, I am pretty cranky about this whole thing. It has cost me time I could have spent here - probably four or five hours I think Bob. (Bob knows about this).

It shouldn't be Bob's job or my job to ask the real experts the facts before publishing an article.

But even if....

...the Oxford professor did come back and say that botulism is possible in such a high sugar solution, then we still have to consider the chances of such a 'perfect storm' occurring.

Is it wrong for me to ask you to run down to the shops and buy some milk for me? I mean there is a chance of you falling over, knocking your head on the pavement and dying. Should I get you to sign an agreement first?

Is it wrong for me to ask you to taste my no-chill beer. I can't complete this analogy because no one has even bothered (besides me) to get the real facts.

Stay tuned,
PP

By the way. Why am I bothering about this? Firstly BIABrewer.info os all about quality brewing information so we need to bother. Secondly, I advised the author of the article not to publish until the following question was answered. "What constitutes a low sugar environment?" He replied anything less sugary than a jam or jelly. That sounded like a pretty stupid answer to me.

I agree with everything BobBrews said above and will add one thing - I hate laziness.

Let's see what happens. But, even if our Oxford professor comes back and says there is a chance, we will still need to just come back at this and view this whole thing sensibly. Otherwise, you have to choose to live in a world where you can't walk outside your front door.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 02 May 2014, 19:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #22 made 10 years ago
by BobBrews
OK, So here is the scoop! I wrote a big long post (about the above) and was about to submit it. When the computer suddenly said it was going to do a update and it was going to reboot! I lost the hours work. So I am pissed off now! In the long run, it's better to be pissed off than to be pissed on! :lol:

Speaking about that. It happened to me once when I was working the radio route for the phone company. We were changing out some old radio horns on top of the towers. We had a company do it for us because it involved helicopters and dangerous heights. My job was to stand around and say "do this and don't do that". I was talking to the representative of the other company when it seemed to start drizzling? Strange that it's raining with a blue sky above?

Yeah! Your correct in guessing that one of the guys at the top of the tower decided to take a leak! With a helicopter hanging a huge horn on top and guys trying to catch it and bolt the horn to the tower I don't blame him! You don't stop a project like that to climb down and pee. The worst of it is that we all had a long day before getting back to the hotel! My head itched but I didn't want to scratch it! :argh: The guy who pissed on us was oblivious? (I guess?) but? I was talking with his boss?

The big post I lost has now migrated to a bevy of ones and zeros. However the jest of it was is that I had a long Skype with James Spencer and he said he is willing to finish up on the long term wort storage podcast for the NHC in June.

I brewed 2 five gallon batches. One in September of last year. One in January. I will be brewing another batch of the same exact beer next week. All three will be fermented side by side with the same yeast at the same time. The panel of tasters (if they aren't afraid by then) will see what differences this particular beer will show? Can they taste a difference in the beer, hops, flavor? Did the hops fade? Which is the best beer?

James said he is willing to do the podcast as we devised it last year! With the proviso that I drink some before hand. If I don't show up at the National Homebrewers Conference than he knows to fill my spot with Eulogizing about me!
Last edited by BobBrews on 02 May 2014, 20:54, edited 1 time in total.
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tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
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Post #23 made 10 years ago
by HbgBill
Sorry to have created this storm. Had I not written to USPlastics.. and coincidentally heard the podcast.. I never would have.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #24 made 10 years ago
by BobBrews
HbgBill,

No problem. The storm had nothing to do with you. We were in the process of whooping up a good one for quite a while. I had contacted them (USP) years ago and had a higher temperature rating given to me. Once the containers became popular they may have worried about us using them and became cautious? Who knows? No-chilling is perfectly safe with everyone's approval. Long term storage was the big bugaboo from years back. We argued about it back in 2006-7-8? At http://aussiehomebrewer.com At least it think I remember that? anyway, Don't worry about anything except brewing a good batch of beer!

Cheers!
Last edited by BobBrews on 02 May 2014, 22:22, edited 1 time in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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Post #25 made 10 years ago
by HbgBill
I'm really looking forward to 'perfecting' this process.. BIAB and No-Chill. If I can replicate what I currently do on tasty beer, I can really get rid of a lot of "STUFF" that is currently occupying one of my spare bedrooms and turn it back into a combo guest bedroom and woodcarving studio. Get rid of some pots, a pump, mash tuns of varying sizes, and so many extra parts... oh, the money spent in stainless QR's.. silicone tubing and whatnot. Should have found this sooner.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California
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