Thanks josh! Edited and fixed now .

As for your question, that pretty much nails all brewing mathematics and terminology. In my day job, all I deal with is stuff like this. I often say at work, "If I got paid a million dollars to come up with a more stupid design than these idiots have come up with, I honestly couldn't do it."

Most of my working days are spent scratching my head saying, "Why on earth would you do it or label it that way?"

joshua wrote:Good Post PP, except "However when we convert it to points per pound per US gallon (ppg US), points per pound per US gallon (ppg US), or litres per degrees (points) per kilogram, you'll have to grab a beer to wrap your head around the differences." Should there have been PPG UK???

I question, I have always have had is, America and UK have Points/Pound, Metric does not have Points/Kilogram.

If they did, the Points/Kilogram/Liter would be VERY easy to work with!!!

Just use the conversion factor you quoted (8.3454) which will give you the LDK. Then use the result as you would PPG only using Litres and Kilos.

Is that what you mean ??

Yeasty, If you have 32 points per pound/gallon(2-row pale) multiplied by 2.20462 it would be 70.54 points per Kilogram/gallon.

Then the gallons to liter is 3.78541 so the would 70.54 points/kg becomes 267.05 points per kilogram per liter.

That does equal your 8.3454 Muliplier

I just dont see the liter/Degree/kilogram as useful as points/kilogram/liter(PKL).

Example:
You can divide the 267.05PKL by 23 to get "1 kilogram of grain in 23 liter of water" to be 1.0116 sg(11.6points)

Then if you wanted 1.045sg(45points) wort you could divide the 45points/11.6points and multply 1 kilogram to equal 3.875 kilogram of grain.

Maybe I am A slow witted Seppo, or maybe mathmatically Challeged????

joshua wrote:I just dont see the liter/Degree/kilogram as useful as points/kilogram/liter(PKL).

They a the same thing:

If you have malt that has extract potential quoted at 267 this will give you 267L of wort at 1.001 ..(1kg x 267)/1 = 267L, it will also give you 1L of wort at a gravity of 1.267...1kg x 267/1L = 1.267.

As per your example; 32 points x 8.3454 = 267.05 points or degrees, they are the same. To calculate your grain bill for 23L of a 1.045 OG beer.

45/(267.05/23) = 3.876 Kg. Times this by your efficiency and Bobs your Uncle !

Yeasty, I now see that "degrees" and "points" are the same thing.

I found a link for UK efficiency at http://www.mashspargeboil.com/a-guide-t ... fficiency/ with a nice table of Grains PPG and LDk.

joshua wrote:Yeasty, I now see that "degrees" and "points" are the same thing.

I found a link for UK efficiency at http://www.mashspargeboil.com/a-guide-t" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... fficiency/ with a nice table of Grains PPG and LDk.

Glad you've got it now Joshua, Its easy once the penny drops, a bit of a headache until it does though.

I've seen that link before, The list is pretty good, I think there is one being put together for the Biabacus.

wbosher wrote:Maybe I should have asked something simple like...how long would it take to drive to the moon and back in a 1961 Hilman Hunter, fully laden, one flat tyre (left front), the 2nd cylinder misfiring and of course assuming the was a gravel road all the way there...

wbosher: Yea it did get a bit OTT. Have you read this post Here for a more simple answer..

only kidding..

Seriously though can you now work out your mash efficiency ? if not and I can see why ( after the above) post some numbers or your workings and we will check them over. Sorry again for the ramble in this thread but in my defence I didn't start it . It was a good exercise, though perhaps just for me and PP, boy did we crunch some numbers this weekend



Yeasty

wbosher wrote:Maybe I should have asked something simple like...how long would it take to drive to the moon and back in a 1961 Hilman Hunter, fully laden, one flat tyre (left front), the 2nd cylinder misfiring and of course assuming the was a gravel road all the way there...

We used to have a Hillamn Hunter. Give me a day or two...



Yeasty, I think it's time we gave wb a quick easy answer ...

A quick way to calculate efficiency

Instead of mucking around and trying to work out the extract potential of every grain in the grain bill, you can just do what The Calculator does and use an average figure.

All you need are the following...

Grain Bill (GB) in grams
Volume of Wort (VW) in litres (adjust for shrinkage if the wort is hot)
Specific Gravity (SG)

Efficiency = ((SG-1)*100,000*VW)/(307*(GB/1000))

Example

So, if you had a grain bill of 5000 grams and pre-boil volume of 30 litres and a gravity of 1.040 then...

GB = 5000
VW = 30*0.9614 = 28.84
SG = 1.040

Efficiency = ((1.040-1)*100000*28.84)/(307*(5000/1000)) = 75.2%

This simple easy formula works well

Remember the complex grain bill we had earlier in the thread with the spreadsheet? Let's see how this 'easy' calculation compares with the complex one. In that example we had a volume into fermentor of 23.1 and an original gravity of 1.060. The grain bill totalled 6140 grams so...

Efficiency = ((1.060-1)*100000*23.1)/(307*(6140/1000)) = 73.5%

The answer using the complex formula working out the extract potential of every single grain was 72.5%, a difference of 1%.

Anyway, that's the default formula The Calculator uses*.

Maybe that's easier wb?


PP

* Note that we might fine-tune this 307 number a little more for the BIABacus once we do a bit more research on the yield from a collection of sample recipes.

Yeasty wrote:The formula is;

(Wort gravity (expressed as points) x Wort Volume (Litres) X 100) / Extract potential (expressed as Kg/L) X grain bill ( In Kg )

So if you have 37.7 L of wort ofter mashing at a gravity of 1.038 from using a grain bill of 5.975kg with an extract potential of 307/Kg/L you will get:

38x37.7x100 divided by 307 x 5.975 which gives you 78.09957341% rounded to 78.1%.

DITTO,

It's far from perfect but it'll get you in the ballpark:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/

Hey PP, I haven't invested the time to read this completely but Kai is pretty sharp and very technical. Have a look?

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph ... Efficiency

Yeasty: Yeah, I know . I actually had a totally different post planned there which was going to end with, "...and that's where Yeasty's formulas in post #2 comes from." I was going to show the different easy formulas for each unit system but was interrupted twice for two hours and then lost my patience - lol. Have been dealing with Windows 8 so still haven't got my patience back .

thughes: Braukaiser is a great site. There's still stuff there I haven't read but have wanted to for ages. He's very thorough and from memory, also mentions the terminology problem re brewhouse efficiency. In fact, I think his definition differs from the Brewer's Friend site - lol. Ban that term is what I reckon .

wbosher: I reckon if you want to know a bit more on the maths, The Calculator isn't a bad place to start as at least everything is transparent. Just click on a cell and you can see the formula behind it. (If your spreadsheet program has a trace precedents or dependents function, that can help to see what the formulas do as well.) I know it's very basic, works on an average extract potential and there are a few terminology errors but the basic principles in it are sound.

I might actually strip The Calculator right down to bare basics prior to BIABacus release so as it can act as a basic learning tool as the BIABAcus formulas, while simple in essence are extremely long and complex as they have to deal with so many scenarios.


PP