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Post #201 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Okay, finally had a chance to check all this out. Yeasty, your spreadsheet is correct :champ:

I have made a couple of small changes but nothing worth mentioning (mainly upped the efficiency to 79%.) Here it is...
The Calculator-MC Black IPA.xlsx
Couple of points...

1. Hopville - By batch size, Hopville means the end of boil volume. So, mc, if you want to get 23 litres into the fermenter, you will have to raise your grain bill to about 8,625 grams. This is nothing to do with BIAB though. If you brewed this recipe with three vessels, you would have to do exactly the same thing. (If you do want to do this, change the Brew Length on the spreadsheet to 21.3 litres.)

2. IBU's - Don't worry about the difference in IBU's. Just use the weights as seen on the hop bill page. (For the reasoning on this, you will have to go back a few pages on this thread and read my long-winded posts :). Basically, all programs use different formulas so it is rare to see any agreement.)

3. Brew Length - This is one of the few industry terms which is well defined and hasn't been abused. It is how much beer you want to get into your kegs or bottles. I am not sure why the word length is used sorry, but the term has been around for hundreds of years.

Hope the above makes some sense mc and good on you for getting stuck into the figures etc - looks like you are getting the hang of it. And, thanks a heap Yeasty for doing the spreadsheet.

:salute: guys,
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Mar 2011, 16:15, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #202 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
One other thing sorry.

Because this is a high gravity brew, your efficiency will drop.(It is harder to dissolve three teaspoons of sugar in a cup of coffee than two!)

At a guess, I would change your efficiency to about 73%.

Anyway, the spreadsheet is all set up thanks to Yeasty so all you have to do is change the figures in red and everything else will adjust automatically though I suspect you have worked this out for yourself already mc :peace:.
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Post #203 made 14 years ago
by Yeasty
PHEW :cry: I got it right. Always a worry when your learning.

I'm gonna change my name to "The Sorcerer's Apprentice"
thumbnail.aspx.jpg
.... ;) :lol:
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Last edited by Yeasty on 10 Mar 2011, 17:30, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #204 made 14 years ago
by the_mc
Thanks PP and Yeasty.....the good thing it that I understand the calculator. The bad is not understanding how hopville does it's calculations. At least I have the calculator to get the right grain bills until I get better with my recipes!

wish me luck. I will be attempting this next weekend with a brewlength of 21.3, a brew length of 15 ltrs is not enough beer for the effort. :headhit: I will let you know how it goes!

Post #205 made 14 years ago
by yetiboy
Hi all. Would someone mind helping me create my 1st BIAB? I have a recipe from my beersmith program as follows. The low efficiency is from my last beer which was strangely different from my past brews. Normally i would expect about 72%ish. My evaporation rate also seemed higher at 26.4% over 90 mins I think it was about 18% in the past, my boiler is 50 cm tall and 50 cm wide.I have a couple of fermentors, a 25L and a 30L. I intend it to go into 2 cornies to be force carbonated:) Is any more info required? Any comments or advice on the recipe would be appreciated also. My recipe is based on a Punk IPA clone but with the IBUs toned down to a similar level to Scarer's Bombay IPA which I found on JimsBeerKit forum. Would all my brewing salts go into the mix as the grain goes in?




BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Double sized Bombay/Punk IPA
Brewer: Ian Magson
Asst Brewer:
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 38.00 L
Boil Size: 62.81 L
Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
Estimated Color: 5.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 58.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 64.00 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
9.41 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 96.83 %
0.31 kg Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 3.17 %
11.02 gm Simcoe [13.00 %] (75 min) Hops 10.5 IBU
18.36 gm Chinook [12.70 %] (75 min) Hops 15.4 IBU
28.72 gm Chinook [12.70 %] (30 min) Hops 17.7 IBU
40.72 gm Ahtanum [7.60 %] (30 min) Hops 15.0 IBU
40.00 gm Simcoe [12.90 %] (30 min) (Aroma Hop-SteeHops -
60.00 gm Ahtanum [7.60 %] (30 min) (Aroma Hop-SteeHops -
20.00 gm Chinook [12.70 %] (30 min) (Aroma Hop-SteHops -
30.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] (0 min) (Aroma HoHops -
2 Pkgs Safale American (DCL Yeast #US-05) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: ********* Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 9.72 kg
----------------------------
********* Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 34.01 L of water at 70.0 C 65.0 C


Notes:
------
Needs water profiling. Has the Ingredients of punk IPA with added munich malt and the IBU of Bombay IPA

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Tap: Pale Ale
Fining: Bombay/Punk IPA
Next Brew: Munich Helles
Planned: Doppelbock

Post #206 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there yeti, welcome to BIABrewer.info :peace:. From your first post, I can see you are a traditional brewer. There are quite a few traditional brewers here who have tried BIAB and now only BIAB! It is great that you are giving it a try :salute:.

Here's a few thoughts...

Firstly, Never Trust Your Figures from One Brew

It is impossible to get accurate figures on any one brew. You should always use averages. THis table of 40 brewers all making the same recipe at the same time with the same ingredients shows just how impossible it is to rely on anyone's figures from a single brew. Never trust the measurements from your last brew!

Secondly, the most critical 'volume' recipe conversion figure is the 'End of Boil' Volume.

Beersmith1's recipe report does not give enough information on volumes. (Hopefully BeerSmith2 will correct this.) For example, your report does not tell me your evaporation rate or your kettle losses so I have no option but to guess your 'end of boil volume,' and this is a critical volume figure when converting recipes. It is the first instance in the brewing process where the original gravity is stable until pitching so it provides the best common ground in recipe conversion.

Further confusion often occurs because many brewers use BeerSmith1's batch size in different ways. This was not BeerSmith1's original intention but unfortunately now, it is quite hard to tell what volume figure a brewer is referring to when they say, "Batch Size."

In your case, it might take me 15 minutes or more using The Calculator and BeerSmith (assuming that I owned it) to work out your end of boil volume and this, at best would still be a guess.

The Good News!

BIAB is really simple. You have already told me what the diameter of your pot is. All I really need to know now is what you mean by Batch Size in your Beersmith Recipe Report.

If by Batch Size, you mean your 'end of boil volume' then I need no more information.

If by Batch Size, you mean your 'volume into the fermenter' then I need to know what volume of kettle trub you average on this size brew.

I'll get back to you once you let me know the above.

Cheers,
PP

P.S. Evaporation: Mate, that is a very big pot! Your evaporation rate will be very high on that pot because of its diameter. (I know, I have a 45cm diameter pot.) It is best to think in volume evaporated per hour rather than percentage of pre-boil volume evaporated. The first figure varies far less on different boil sizes. Most brewing software does not do this unfortunately. A search on this site of "bowl and evaporation" should give you some more info on how to reduce the evaporation rate of your big pot.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 17 Mar 2011, 21:08, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #207 made 14 years ago
by yetiboy
Thank you for the welcome.
My "batch size" is referring to the volume into the fermenter.
With my usual 19L batch size my loss to trub would be 2.5L. So If I do this 38L brew would my losses to trub double to 5 Litres?
Hope this helps. Righto Im off to check out 'bowl and evaporation' :)

Cheers

ps I have made enquiries about a bag, hopefully i'll have it soon, fingers crossed. Im dieing to try out the Biab.
On Tap: Pale Ale
Fining: Bombay/Punk IPA
Next Brew: Munich Helles
Planned: Doppelbock

Post #208 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there Yeti,

It looks as though we are good to go as we now know that your recipe above had...

1. An End Of Boil Volume = 43 L (38 L + 5 L)
2. An OG = 1.052
3. Kettle Diameter = 50 cm
4. The grain bill
5. The hop bill

That is all we need to know.

I am going to use The Calculator to convert the recipe as the in-built formulas will get you in the ball-park on your first brew. (Beersmith1 has no mash profiles for BIAB so your volume readings will be a bit out. The next version is correcting this.)

Using The Calculator is also very easy...

1. Download it from here

2. On the first sheet called 'Volumes' I am going to play around with the first red figure, "Brew Length," until I see the, "End of Boil Volume" change to 38 L. 30.2 L works pretty well.

3. Next I am going to change the next red figure, "End of Boil Gravity (OG) to 1.052.

4. Then I am going to change the last red figure, "Diameter of Kettle" to 50 cms.

5. Now we skip over to the Grain Bill Sheet and type in your grain weights in Cells D6 to D7. (First delete the percentage figures in Cells B6 to B8.)

6. Next we type in your hops on the Hop Bill Sheet. (I had to add a line seeing as you had so many hops!) Ignore the total IBU's that The Calculator computes as this formulas needs some tuning up. Columns B, C, G and J need filling in as does Cell E5.

7. You are all done!

You can see how much grain you need on the right hand side of the Grain Bill sheet and how many hops you need on the right hand side of your Hop Bill sheet. How much water to start with can be found in cell B20 of the Volumes Sheet and that's all you need!

Here is what your copy of The Calculator should look like when you do the above.
The Calculator - YetiBoy's Bombay Punk IPA.xls
Other Notes

The Calculator uses an "End of Boil Efficiency" figure not "Efficiency into the Fermenter" so don't get confused on this. Your previous efficiencies on your three-vessel system are irrelevant as you are no longer using your mash tun etc.

As to your question re doubling the trub for a double batch, the answer is no but it is not a significant difference, certainly nothing to worry about.

The Calculator allows for generous trub losses just as a safety margin. You can over-write this formula after you have done several brews and build up some average figures.

If you want to brew a single batch of this recipe, all you have to do is change the Brew Length figure. If you want to achieve a specific volume into the fermenter, just change the Brew Length figure a few times until Cell B7 shows your desired volume.

Let us know if the above makes sense.

:peace:
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 18 Mar 2011, 21:41, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #209 made 14 years ago
by yetiboy
Thanks PP. Im almost ready to go - I now have my recipe:) - just ordered a rope and hook and am awaiting details of a bag being made :salute:
On Tap: Pale Ale
Fining: Bombay/Punk IPA
Next Brew: Munich Helles
Planned: Doppelbock

Post #210 made 14 years ago
by yetiboy
Ok, I have my bag now.
I have scaled the recipe down to just do a single batch this time - till I'm confident.
Brew day is saturday :dream:
On Tap: Pale Ale
Fining: Bombay/Punk IPA
Next Brew: Munich Helles
Planned: Doppelbock

Post #211 made 14 years ago
by Yeasty
yetiboy wrote:Ok, I have my bag now
Best Bag in in the UK :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't forget to post how it goes. :luck:

Y
Last edited by Yeasty on 25 Mar 2011, 07:45, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #213 made 14 years ago
by samuls35
hi looking to do one of my first brew soon but was going to start with the american pale ale . Was looking around last night and found this recipe that took my fancy , so i had a crack at trying to convert it . As this is my first time could someone please check it out and re-correct all of my mistakes there will be a few !!! .

1 . I have a 50 l pot so with such a big grain bill 6kg i reckon 37l water grain should top the pot out .

One other thing i was unsure of was ( not in this original recipe ) if it calls for a 60min boil or mash do i when i first change the values like end boil OG ect ect should i change these as well to get a more accurate end boil volume . Then when i scale the recipe to suit change all these back to 90min

So here are the originals and my scale
http://www.brewmate.net/recipes/DPhHq4C ... wAaFLH.xml

regards

I know that brewmate has a biab converter but i only have a mac can't run it
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Post #214 made 14 years ago
by jimmysuperlative
G'day samuls.

My setup is 50L also ...without knowing your evaporation rate (mine's around 10%) and other losses to kettle etc, I would think you are pretty close.
Given that your recipe looks pretty forgiving with just the single hop addition, I would say jump in and have a crack at it. It will give you a chance to see how your gear performs ...note keep as you go to record volumes and losses etc.

Keep an eye on gravities throughout the brew day (use a refractometer if you can) ...and either top up to make it to your volume if you're short, or extend the boil. You may find you need to do neither. You'll still knock out a nice beer.
Most importantly, keep a record of the process ...what you had to do or didn't do.

Good luck! ...and remember to let us know how it goes.
Everybody's waitin' for the man with the bag ... K Starr (1950)

Post #215 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
I'm on the road at the moment sam so can't check your figures for you and wouldn't be able to for another week sorry. If jimmy says go for it then you shouldn't be too worried. :luck:
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Post #216 made 14 years ago
by Pat
[center]ADMIN NOTE[/center]

Please note that The Calculator has just been updated for two reasons...

1. There was an error in several of the spreadsheets including the main download that were updated on March 12th. I think all have been corrected now. Due to a typo in the hop formula, hop weights were not changing in the scaled recipe.

2. The bitterness formula has been slightly improved. It now works on the average gravity of the boil rather then the post-boil (original) gravity. With this change, you will now find your bitterness calculations read higher and are more inline with mainstream programs.

Many thanks to Yeasty for picking up on the error and to stux for advising of the advantage in using the average boil gravity :salute:.

Pat
Last edited by Pat on 31 Mar 2011, 02:53, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #217 made 14 years ago
by majorphill
Pat
I have been playing around with the calculator. I can see a large amount of work and research has gone into it. I think that there may still be an error in the hop bill under the scaled grams column. The scaled grams points to an absolute cell at $G$7 whilst I think you may have meant it to reference $H$5, the average gravity cell. Then again I may be missing the point entirely. :headhit:

Regards

Post #218 made 14 years ago
by Pat
Major you are spot on. Thanks for catching that so quickly. I did those updates in a hurry and was worried I might have missed something. All is now fixed.

Welcome to the forum Major and many thanks again :salute:,
Pat
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Post #219 made 14 years ago
by the_mc
PistolPatch wrote:Okay, finally had a chance to check all this out. Yeasty, your spreadsheet is correct :champ:

I have made a couple of small changes but nothing worth mentioning (mainly upped the efficiency to 79%.) Here it is...
The Calculator-MC Black IPA.xlsx
Couple of points...

1. Hopville - By batch size, Hopville means the end of boil volume. So, mc, if you want to get 23 litres into the fermenter, you will have to raise your grain bill to about 8,625 grams. This is nothing to do with BIAB though. If you brewed this recipe with three vessels, you would have to do exactly the same thing. (If you do want to do this, change the Brew Length on the spreadsheet to 21.3 litres.)

2. IBU's - Don't worry about the difference in IBU's. Just use the weights as seen on the hop bill page. (For the reasoning on this, you will have to go back a few pages on this thread and read my long-winded posts :). Basically, all programs use different formulas so it is rare to see any agreement.)

3. Brew Length - This is one of the few industry terms which is well defined and hasn't been abused. It is how much beer you want to get into your kegs or bottles. I am not sure why the word length is used sorry, but the term has been around for hundreds of years.

Hope the above makes some sense mc and good on you for getting stuck into the figures etc - looks like you are getting the hang of it. And, thanks a heap Yeasty for doing the spreadsheet.

:salute: guys,
PP

Hi Guys, I finally got around to brewing this beer on the weekend. The brew day went fine but some of the final numbers came out different than expected. I used the attached sheet. As you can see I was supposed to end up with an OG of 1.074 and brew length of 16.5 litre's.

What I did end up with was 1.066 OG and 18.5 ltr's?? The sweet wort tasted good so I think the final product will be OK but I want to figue out how I was so far off on the numbers....
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Last edited by the_mc on 05 Apr 2011, 23:26, edited 9 times in total.

Post #220 made 14 years ago
by BrickBrewHaus
the_mc wrote:
PistolPatch wrote:Okay, finally had a chance to check all this out. Yeasty, your spreadsheet is correct :champ:

I have made a couple of small changes but nothing worth mentioning (mainly upped the efficiency to 79%.) Here it is...
The Calculator-MC Black IPA.xlsx
Couple of points...

1. Hopville - By batch size, Hopville means the end of boil volume. So, mc, if you want to get 23 litres into the fermenter, you will have to raise your grain bill to about 8,625 grams. This is nothing to do with BIAB though. If you brewed this recipe with three vessels, you would have to do exactly the same thing. (If you do want to do this, change the Brew Length on the spreadsheet to 21.3 litres.)

2. IBU's - Don't worry about the difference in IBU's. Just use the weights as seen on the hop bill page. (For the reasoning on this, you will have to go back a few pages on this thread and read my long-winded posts :). Basically, all programs use different formulas so it is rare to see any agreement.)

3. Brew Length - This is one of the few industry terms which is well defined and hasn't been abused. It is how much beer you want to get into your kegs or bottles. I am not sure why the word length is used sorry, but the term has been around for hundreds of years.

Hope the above makes some sense mc and good on you for getting stuck into the figures etc - looks like you are getting the hang of it. And, thanks a heap Yeasty for doing the spreadsheet.

:salute: guys,
PP

Hi Guys, I finally got around to brewing this beer on the weekend. The brew day went fine but some of the final numbers came out different than expected. I used the attached sheet. As you can see I was supposed to end up with an OG of 1.074 and brew length of 16.5 litre's.

What I did end up with was 1.066 OG and 18.5 ltr's?? The sweet wort tasted good so I think the final product will be OK but I want to figue out how I was so far off on the numbers....
Looks like it was simply a case of a lower evaporation rate than expected. Nothing to fret about. Just calculate your actual boil-off rate for this beer and adjust for it next time. Understand, though, that your evaporation rate will change depending on the conditions that day. Higher humidity will decrease evaporation, wind (if applicable) will probably increase it, more vigorous boil will increase it, etc.

Well done :clap:
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 05 Apr 2011, 23:37, edited 9 times in total.

Post #221 made 14 years ago
by the_mc
BrickBrewHaus wrote:
the_mc wrote:
PistolPatch wrote:Okay, finally had a chance to check all this out. Yeasty, your spreadsheet is correct :champ:

I have made a couple of small changes but nothing worth mentioning (mainly upped the efficiency to 79%.) Here it is...
The Calculator-MC Black IPA.xlsx
Couple of points...

1. Hopville - By batch size, Hopville means the end of boil volume. So, mc, if you want to get 23 litres into the fermenter, you will have to raise your grain bill to about 8,625 grams. This is nothing to do with BIAB though. If you brewed this recipe with three vessels, you would have to do exactly the same thing. (If you do want to do this, change the Brew Length on the spreadsheet to 21.3 litres.)

2. IBU's - Don't worry about the difference in IBU's. Just use the weights as seen on the hop bill page. (For the reasoning on this, you will have to go back a few pages on this thread and read my long-winded posts :). Basically, all programs use different formulas so it is rare to see any agreement.)

3. Brew Length - This is one of the few industry terms which is well defined and hasn't been abused. It is how much beer you want to get into your kegs or bottles. I am not sure why the word length is used sorry, but the term has been around for hundreds of years.

Hope the above makes some sense mc and good on you for getting stuck into the figures etc - looks like you are getting the hang of it. And, thanks a heap Yeasty for doing the spreadsheet.

:salute: guys,
PP

Hi Guys, I finally got around to brewing this beer on the weekend. The brew day went fine but some of the final numbers came out different than expected. I used the attached sheet. As you can see I was supposed to end up with an OG of 1.074 and brew length of 16.5 litre's.

What I did end up with was 1.066 OG and 18.5 ltr's?? The sweet wort tasted good so I think the final product will be OK but I want to figue out how I was so far off on the numbers....
Looks like it was simply a case of a lower evaporation rate than expected. Nothing to fret about. Just calculate your actual boil-off rate for this beer and adjust for it next time. Understand, though, that your evaporation rate will change depending on the conditions that day. Higher humidity will decrease evaporation, wind (if applicable) will probably increase it, more vigorous boil will increase it, etc.

Well done :clap:
Thanks BrickBrewHaus I am in Toronto so it was humid and windy yesterday:) go figure. I will have to do a couple tests to get the boil rate...not that I am complaining that I ended up with more beer ;)
Last edited by the_mc on 05 Apr 2011, 23:56, edited 9 times in total.

Post #222 made 14 years ago
by wizard78
I had a brew day a few months ago, humidity was about 90%. My usual evaperation is about 8 litres over 90 mins, but on this day it was only around 4 litres. Amazing...
Just remember a couple of gravity points here a litre or so there, is stillgoing to make good beer.
Hitting numbers spot on is really only something commercial breweries need to worry about.
Good luck with your brew, I'm sure it will be great.
Cheers
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[/center]
[center]Homer Simpson[/center]
[center]K.I.S.S., B.I.A.B.[/center]

Post #223 made 14 years ago
by flemming
I'm getting ready to do my first BIAB and I've thrown all of my info into the calculator and some of the numbers seem a little funny to me so I figured I'd post it up and see how it looked to everyone else. The recipe is the Belgian Wit from Beersmith:

Batch Size: 19.68 L
Boil Size: 19.68 L
Boil Time: 60min
Efficiency: 75%

2041 gm Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel
2041 gm What, Flaked
28.35 gm Goldings, East Kent 5.00% @ 60min
21.3 gm Coriander Seed @ 5min
21.3 gm Orange Peel, Bitter @ 5min
1 pkg Belgian Wit Ale (White Labs #WLP400)

Est OG: 1.047
Est FG: 1.011
Bitterness: 16.7 IBU
Est Color: 4.0 SRM

I'm using a converted keg as my brew pot. Here is what I'm getting from the calculator:

Brew Length: 18.93 lts
Fermenter Trub: 1.51 lts
Volume into Fermenter: 20.44 lts
Kettle Trub & Buffer: 3.41 lts
End of Boil Efficiency: 79.00%
End of Boil Gravity (OG): 1.047
End of Boil Volume: 23.85 lts
Boil Length: 90min
Diameter of Kettle: 39.37 cms
Evaporation Per Hour: 5.21 lts/hr
Evaporation for this Brew: 7.82 lts
Expected Start of Boil Gravity: 1.035
Start of Boil Volume: 31.67 lts
Grain Bill Required: 4622 grams
Grain Absorption: 2.90 lts
Water Required is...: 34.57 lts
Approximate Mash Volume: 37.62 lts

I redid the grain bill numbers using the FGDB values for the two grains and came up with needing 2355 grams of each, so a bit more than the calculator suggested. The hop bill suggests 22.2 grams @ 7.2AA% to reach 16.7 IBUs. I also increased the boil to 90min as suggested by the calculator.

34.47 liters sounds like a whole lot of water to start with to me. This is my first time using a keggle so I don't have any past brews to site for more precise evaporation numbers and such. I did a test boil this past weekend of just water and I think my evaporation was more like 3.78 liters/hour but my boil may have been a little on the tame side. The kettle trub and buffer also seems high to me since I'll be using a hopsock, but I've got nothing to base it on. How do these numbers look to everyone else? I'm fully expecting a response along the lines of: Stop over thinking it and just do it based on the calculator and go from there :) Thanks in advance.

Robert

Post #224 made 14 years ago
by hashie
Stop over thinking it and just do it based on the calculator and go from there.

Seriously, I brew in a keggle and those numbers look pretty damn close to what I do.

The difference being, I start with 37 litres, have 34-35 litres pre- boil and I have ~27 litres post boil.

Best thing is to go by the calculator until such time as you have your own figures from your own equipment.

Hope that helps.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #225 made 14 years ago
by housecat
Listen to Hashie!

I do doubles and I start with about 65L so I'd imagine that 34L is about right.

Its all about "test, adjust, test again"

Do a few brews get to know your equipment and trust the calculator!

HC
Part of the NoAd brewers

My mum says I'm cool.
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