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Adding Sugars to Fermenter

Post #1 made 9 years ago
by xfumbler
I brewed a Belgian Triple. It’s been transferred to the secondary for another two weeks before bottling.

I added honey in the fermenter and this has caused me some confusion. I wanted to run by you all my measured gravities and have some specific questions I'd like answered if anyone can indulge me.

The honey was added to the grain bill in Biabacus (section C), I indicated it was added to the boil ("B" under method) though this is obviously a lie.

Here are the actual measured numbers:
Day 1: Measured GIB: 1.052 (23.58L)
Estimated GIB from Biabacus was 1.048

Day 1: Measured GAW: 1.074 (13.97L)
Estimated GAW from Biabacus is 1.090

Day 8: Measured gravity before adding Honey: 1.018
Day 8: Added 2.5 lbs honey to fermenter

Day 21: Measured FG: 1.014
Day 21: Transferred to secondary (10.98L)

Estimated FG from Biabacus is 1.025

I calculated that the honey added 24 gravity points. Here is my math: (35ppg/3.69gallons)*2.5lbs = 24 gravity points.

I’ve added 95% FGDB and 20% MC under section Y in Biabacus for the honey if that matters to any of this.

Here are my Q’s:
1) The Biabacus GIB was 1.048, my measured GIB was 1.052. If Biabacus assumed the honey added 24 gravity points to get to 1.048, I over shot it by quite a lot (because the honey had not been added at that point). If Biabacus assumed the honey was not added, I hit it mostly dead on. Which is correct?

2) I’d like to add the ABV to the bottle label. The measured GAW was 1.074. Do I add 24 gravity points to this reading and enter 1.098 in Biabacus as the actual OG to get the correct ABV?

3) My FG was 1.014 going into the fermenter, Biabacus estimated it as 1.025. I entered 1.014 as the Actual Final Gravity, apparent attenuation is 84.8% and real attenuation is 69.5%. Is this something that should raise eyebrows?

4) I think this stuff will be high in alcohol. ABV according to Biabacus is 11%. I’ve never actually been drunk off my own home-brew. Do I unlock a life achievement or get a merit badge if I do that?
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Post #2 made 9 years ago
by xfumbler
Darn, just realized the honey gravity points were wrong. That’ll change the numbers. I only added 1.5lbs of honey not 2.5lbs.

Corrected calculation of honey adds only 14 gravity points. Here is my new math: (35ppg/3.69gallons)*1.5lbs = 14 gravity points.

Lets see if my Q’s matter anymore:

1) The Biabacus GIB was 1.048, my measured GIB was 1.052. If Biabacus assumed the honey added 14 gravity points to get to 1.048, my measured gravity should have been 1.034 and I would have still over shot it (because the honey had not been added at that point). If Biabacus assumed the honey was not added, I was close enough. Which is correct? Ok that question stands.

2) I’d like to add the ABV to the bottle label. The measured GAW was 1.074. Do I add 14 gravity points to this reading and enter 1.088 in Biabacus (new math!) as the actual OG to get the correct ABV? This question still stands.

3) My FG was 1.014 going into the fermenter, Biabacus estimated it as 1.022. I entered 1.014 as the Actual Final Gravity, apparent attenuation is 83.1% and real attenuation is 68.1%. Is this something that should raise eyebrows? Well the numbers are smaller now, maybe that was the issue.

4) I think this stuff will be high in alcohol. ABV according to Biabacus is 9.7%. I’ve never actually been drunk off my own home-brew. Do I unlock a life achievement or get a merit badge if I do that? Darn, lower ABV, might not qualify. <sigh>
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Post #3 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
I'm probably not the best person to answer this fumbler as I'm not experienced on Belgian Triples (or most high gravity styles) but you've been waiting for a while so I'll see if I can add anything...

To show you how little I know, I would have thought that you would add the honey at the end of the boil :think:. Then again, from memory, honey is very sterile so it probably doesn't matter :scratch:.

Okay, a few things...

1. I'd like to see your file. That makes it really fast to see any discrepancies.

Actually, that's it for now, really need the file with as many actuals filled in as possible. That, plus your excellent details above should help sort things out.

:peace:
PP
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Post #4 made 9 years ago
by xfumbler
No problem PP, see the attached file. Don't sweat it.

For making a Belgian, my understanding is that it's best to add the honey to the fermenter because
1) it makes it possible to retain some flavor which would be lost in the boil
2) it makes the yeast metabolize the malt derived sugars first, otherwise they would metabolize the honey first which is not ideal
3) the honey is a hostile environment for bacteria

But then I've only done 13 batches in my life and pretty much have messed up something in each and every one (including this one) so take everything I say on this topic with a bucket or two of salt because I'm most likely talking out of my....

Cheers!
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Post #5 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks for the info on the Belgian Trippel. That all sounds sensible and I certainly didn't know any of that :peace:.

Nice work on your gravity calcs :salute:.

Have a look at Section P. In theory, Efficiency into Boil and Efficiency of Ambient Wort should be the same. EIB is difficult to measure because of the swelling of the near boiling wort and, problems can occurr with taking gravity samples. For example, I notice on the Unit Conversion sheet that the temp of your gravity sample was 40C. [EDIT: I think that 40C is actually the default in the master file so I think I am wrong in assuming you took your reading at 40C]. The BIABacus has thrown up a red warning saying, "Your sample is too hot for an accurate reading."

The 9% discrepancy between the EIB and EAW shows us that we can't can't really give much weight to the "into kettle" numbers. On any brew, the best that into boil numbers can be is as a preliminary check, for the reasons given above.

Re Q1 though, if you have a B beside the fermentable, the BIABacus will not include that in the Gravity into Boil estimate.

...

[I think you might already know what I have written below so ignore it if you do.]

Notice though how your EAW (which is based on the ambient wort volume and gravity and is much easier to measure) is almost identical to the estimate? As you have correctly stated in Q2, why did you match the expected Efficiency of Ambient Wort when you hadn't added the honey as yet???

The problem is you've typed in 1.088 instead of 1.074. If you change that, you'll see your EAW drops from to 80.6% to 67.7%. Add the 14 points back in, because the BIABacus doesn't know that you didn't add the honey during the boil, and everything is nicely on target.

So, in Q2, yep, use 1.088 as your "real" GAW/OG.

...

As for Q3 on final gravity, attenuation on yeasts depends on a lot of factors so final gravity estimates are very ball-park. WLP500 is a higher attenuating yeast than what the BIABacus uses as a default so type in 80% on the fourth line of Section H and you're already down to an FG estimate of 1.018.

The fact that you did a step mash will, further increase attenuation (quite a bit) so I would advise trusting in your reading of 1.014.

So, yep, you should label it as 9.7% ABV and give yourself a merit badge :lol:.

Nice work xfumbler :thumbs:.
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