Seems very low imo.
Took this from the BJCP guidelines
"Aroma: Usually moderate to strong hop aroma from dry hopping or late kettle additions of American hop varieties. A citrusy hop character is very common, but not required. Low to moderate maltiness supports the hop presentation, and may optionally show small amounts of specialty malt character (bready, toasty, biscuity). Fruity esters vary from moderate to none. No diacetyl. Dry hopping (if used) may add grassy notes, although this character should not be excessive."

Vital Statistics: OG: 1.045 – 1.060
IBUs: 30 – 45 FG: 1.010 – 1.015
SRM: 5 – 14 ABV: 4.5 – 6.2%

That's not to say this would be bad. Lots of late and dry hops will make it nice and hoppy and without that bitterness of say an IPA. Could be a winner.

LampyB wrote:So do you guys think I should just brew the low IBU recipe next weekend? I'm thinking just run with it and hope that DaveDoran is right when he said it 'could be a winner'. If there's a high possibility it turns out poorly due to such a low IBU will someone weigh in!?

What DaveDoran said, 'seems very low'. I would go with the guidlines of 30-45 IBU.

I'm backing cwier60 one thousand percent on this. I've been keeping half an eye on this and am wondering why there is such a huge discrepancy. Normally I keep a full eye on this thread but I haven't. Something majorly wrong has gone on here.

I'll back-track through this thread tomorrow if necessary but, to me, on a brief scan, I suspect that someone is not listening or ignoring a ridiculous discrepancy.

Can anyone save me having to do a major back-track?

Might be worth an experiment LampyB. My recommendation would be to do a small batch if you are going to try push the guidelines a bit. At the end of the it will be your beer and you will be drinking it so its completely up to you.
Obvious advantage of a smaller brew would be to see if it works first then scale it up. Also as cweir60 says dry hopping is a little bit trial and error. Put a bit in and taste after a couple of days. Then see if you want to add more. Remember its a bit like soy sauce you can always add more but not take it out once you go over the line.

I am posting this file for cwier60 a.k.a. Charles

~
Mad Scientist Rogue Dead Guy Clone

Possibly relevant: Mangrove Jack's M44 is said to be the dry version of Pacman, but I'm not sure how true that is. I'm giving that a shot on my current IPA (wanted something similar, but with higher flocculation than US-05).

cwier60 wrote:Why did you increase the IBUs from 40 to 54?

Just to experiment a little. On the 54 IBU brew I used 4 ozs. of WP hops instead of 6
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2029#p31467

cwier60 wrote:I hope you didn't use 5 oz of Saaz at whirlpool, since the amount is based on aroma more than a bitterness addition.

On this one, I bought 2 (2 ozs.) packs of Saaz
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2029#p31298

cwier60 wrote:I'm inclined to use the hop additions JZ & Tasty used for the CYBI clone, which were the same ratios as Maier's original recipe (which I'm guessing must have been for 60bbl). If you look at the IBUs from 40g of 7.5%AA Perle at 90 (not 60) minutes and 32g of 7%AA Sterling, using 12 min as you did to account for the WP bittering, I get 40.5 IBUs for 22.71L (6 gal) of VAW. I would then ignore the difference in %AA for the WP addition for the reason cited above.

I would be interested to see that link. The BIABacus scaled your example, that's one way to brew it.

cwier60 wrote:What prompted you to make the extract potential adjustments in Sec Y, especially since the impact of these is small? Did you actually make measurements on your grain? Also, were all the adjustments in Sec X intended based on your brewing history?

I bought 50 pound sacks that had the spec cards sewn on, so I entered it because I had it. Section X 9% efficiency was dialed in on this 3rd brew of the DG, I over shot to OG on the first two. 3.8 L evaporation rate is what I get for my keggle.

cwier60 wrote:I see you used Safale US-05, which I have seen some others recommend if you can't get Pacman. However, you show that you fermented at 65°F instead of the recommended 60° for this beer. Was this due to the inability to maintain the lower temperature or by design?

15-22C, I picked 65F for some reason... I can ferment at any temperature I want.
Here's my BIAB stream in Flickr; https://www.flickr.com/photos/madscient" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 769/detail

cwier60 wrote:I expect that you were very happy with your beer. Would you consider it a clone of DGA, or just a tasty approximation?

I am happy with this recipe. I know DGA has changed over time, I fell in love with it in 2006 in Coorvallis Oregon and visited the brewery in Newport. My tastebuds probably changed too. I would try my 49 IBU again with Perle and Sterling.
American Rogue Dead Guy - CYBI w / John Maier --- Brewmaster
Here's my recipe thread; viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2029



Cheers
MS

Hi Everyone,

Ever since I tried Brooklyn Sorachi Ace at my local craft beer bar, I've been wanting to brew a clone of it.
I think I have found a high integrity recipe that originated at BYO. Please help me understand how I convert
this this recipe and use it with BIABacus.

Many, many thanks,
Steve

Here is the recipe info (I think):

OVERVIEW
Style: 16C Saison
Name: Brooklyn Sorachi Ace Clone
Yeast: White Labs Trappist Ale Yeast WL500
Fermentation Temperature: 71°F
Original Gravity: 1.082
Total IBU's: 33.0
Colour (EBC): 4.1°SRM
Efficiency at End of Boil: ?
Mash Length (mins): 85 mins
Boil Length (mins): 60 minutes
Your Vessel Type: Pot
Source/Credits: Shawn Kummrow (http://www.brewprint.com/recipe/brooklyn-sorachi-ace" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Notes/Instructions/Comments:
Mash in at 122F, hold 10 minutes. Raise mash temperature to 146F and hold for 60 minutes. Raise mash to 152F and hold 15 minutes. Then mash off at 168F. To 5 gallons of wort at 13.5P or 1.054, add corn sugar. Boil ends at 60 minutes. Cool to 64F, aerate well and pitch yeast. Ferment at 71F. After fermentation ends and yeast settles, dry hop with Sorachi Ace for 5-7 days.

Volumes etc.
Your Vessel Volume (L or gal): 11 gal
Your Vessel Diameter (cm or in): 14.17 in
Water Required (L or gal): Distilled Water 5.70 gal
Mash Temperature (C or F): See Instructions above
Volume at End of Boil (L or gal): 5.00 gal
Volume into Fermenter (L or gal): ?
Brew Length (L or gal): ?
Total Grain Bill (g or oz): 12.00 lbs (11 lbs malt barley + 1 lb dextrose)

Grains Hops Adjuncts/Minerals/Finings etc
Adjunct: 1.00 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer Step 1 - Add Water
Mineral:
Finings:

shetc wrote:Hi Everyone,

Ever since I tried Brooklyn Sorachi Ace at my local craft beer bar, I've been wanting to brew a clone of it.
I think I have found a high integrity recipe that originated at BYO. Please help me understand how I convert
this this recipe and use it with BIABacus.

Many, many thanks,
Steve

Here is the recipe info (I think):

OVERVIEW
Style: 16C Saison
Name: Brooklyn Sorachi Ace Clone
Yeast: White Labs Trappist Ale Yeast WL500
Fermentation Temperature: 71°F
Original Gravity: 1.082
Total IBU's: 33.0
Colour (EBC): 4.1°SRM
Efficiency at End of Boil: ?
Mash Length (mins): 85 mins
Boil Length (mins): 60 minutes
Your Vessel Type: Pot
Source/Credits: Shawn Kummrow (http://www.brewprint.com/recipe/brooklyn-sorachi-ace" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Notes/Instructions/Comments:
Mash in at 122F, hold 10 minutes. Raise mash temperature to 146F and hold for 60 minutes. Raise mash to 152F and hold 15 minutes. Then mash off at 168F. To 5 gallons of wort at 13.5P or 1.054, add corn sugar. Boil ends at 60 minutes. Cool to 64F, aerate well and pitch yeast. Ferment at 71F. After fermentation ends and yeast settles, dry hop with Sorachi Ace for 5-7 days.

Volumes etc.
Your Vessel Volume (L or gal): 11 gal
Your Vessel Diameter (cm or in): 14.17 in
Water Required (L or gal): Distilled Water 5.70 gal
Mash Temperature (C or F): See Instructions above
Volume at End of Boil (L or gal): 5.00 gal
Volume into Fermenter (L or gal): ?
Brew Length (L or gal): ?
Total Grain Bill (g or oz): 12.00 lbs (11 lbs malt barley + 1 lb dextrose)

Grains

Code: Select all

      weight     type                  boil time  color   ppg  points
92%   11.00 lbs  Pilsner (2 Row) Ger      60 min    2°L  44.3   70.13
 8%    1.00 lbs  Corn Sugar (Dextrose)    60 min    0°L  44.3    8.85

Hops

Code: Select all

weight   type         form        phase      alpha acid  time     aau  ibu
0.50 oz  Sorachi Ace  Whole Leaf  Boil	     12.0%	 60 min    6.00  17
0.50 oz  Sorachi Ace  Whole Leaf  Boil	     12.0%	 30 min    6.00  13
5.00 oz  Sorachi Ace  Whole Leaf  Boil	     12.0%             60.00
2.00 oz  Sorachi Ace  Whole Leaf  Secondary   12.0%    7 days   24.00	

Adjuncts/Minerals/Finings etc
Adjunct: 1.00 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer Step 1 - Add Water
Mineral:
Finings:

Here you go, have a look at the attached BIABacus file and make sure there are no errors. IBU's would come in closer at 31.5 for pellets, not sure the recipe creator calculated for whole hops. You can delete the FL in hop section to see that get closer to target.

I upped the boil time to 90 mins due to the pils malt, and increased VIF to accommodate your pot capacity. Change Sec. B VIF to 16.4 if you want to put it at original recipe volumes.


"Very pale base malts (such as pilsner malt) tend to have higher S-Methyl Methionine (SMM) levels which drives higher DMS production. The half-life for DMS is 40 minutes, so half of the DMS will be boiled off in a 40 minute vigorous boil. So if we do the math, a 60 minute boil gets rid of 64.7% of the DMS and a 90 minute boil rids us of 79% of the DMS. That is why most experienced brewers recommend a 90 minute or longer vigorous boil." Source.

Also, that water info doesn't look right. Let us know what you plan to do for that and we can go from there.

Amazing Rick! -- really fast, thanks!!!

So I am going to compare the information I provided against what Rick produced so that I can intuit how this recipe conversion stuff works.
I guess the question is, is it intuitable or is it based on your years of experience that I don't have yet?

Regarding the water: I have yet to try playing with water chemistry at all. I have been following the newbie approach that
if my tap water tastes good then it is good enough to brew with. The original recipe calls for distilled water -- is this really required?

shetc wrote:Amazing Rick! -- really fast, thanks!!!

So I am going to compare the information I provided against what Rick produced so that I can intuit how this recipe conversion stuff works.
I guess the question is, is it intuitable or is it based on your years of experience that I don't have yet?

Regarding the water: I have yet to try playing with water chemistry at all. I have been following the newbie approach that
if my tap water tastes good then it is good enough to brew with. The original recipe calls for distilled water -- is this really required?

Experience plays into part of it (I only have just over a year of brewing exp, btw), but in all honestly this level of experience comes quickly thanks to the intuitive nature of the BIABacus. I basically entered everything as you provided it.

The only thing I had to look at closely was the post boil volume of 5 gallons. This does not specify whether it's VFO or VAW (both are technically post boil volumes, but with a difference of heat expansion or contraction). I went with VFO, because the IBU's got closer to matching the original recipe (not only for total, but each hop addition matched pretty closely to the original numbers). Coupled with the pellet vs whole flower discrepancy, everything seemed to resolve itself. Even if translated the other way, we'd still be pretty close to target. As a result, I can feel somewhat confident that the brewer of that recipe was using tinseth.

It's hard to think to yourself .. "I have this exactly right". What you want to feel is "hmm, I have a degree of confidence that this recipe is translated well enough to move forward."

You'll also note that I overrode the default ppg information in section y for the dextrose. I didn't need to, because the defaults would be sufficient for this particular brew; BUT ... not only is it good practice to always pay mind to that, it's also a good learning opportunity for me to address it early in your learning phase for future brews. If this bit was overlooked on a different style beer with a greater amount of adjuncts, it could have been a catastrophe.

shetc wrote:
Regarding the water: I have yet to try playing with water chemistry at all. I have been following the newbie approach that
if my tap water tastes good then it is good enough to brew with. The original recipe calls for distilled water -- is this really required?

Nah, distilled water is bad for all grain brews ... unless of course you add the necessary ions to the water. If you plan to not mess with water chem yet, definitely avoid distilled water for now.

I see that the amount of pils grain went from 11 to 15.61 pounds. Is that because of the degree of efficiency associated with BIAB technique?

shetc wrote:I see that the amount of pils grain went from 11 to 15.61 pounds. Is that because of the degree of efficiency associated with BIAB technique?

Apples to apples comparison would be 11 lbs to 13.75. In order to closest match the original recipe ...

- Change boil back to 60 min.
- Change Desired Volume Into Fermenter to 16.4

Then you can see actual difference. Previous post explained why I changed to 90m boil. The only reason I changed VIF, was because you had the extra room in your kettle. Why not make more beer if you can?

Experience tells me to trust the BIABacus. We have the 1.082 OG information, and the percentages. We do not know if the brewer actually hit this number, or if 1.082 is simply a calculation.

What I do know, is that with these grain totals, experience tells me to trust the BIABacus to get you where you need to be over some questionable number in a recipe.

I just played with the numbers, and according to the BIABacus ... 11lb-ish of pils and 1lb of dextrose is only enough malt to support a 1.071 OG.

Another thing to ask yourself now, is the 1.082 a typo which was supposed to be 1.072? Possible.

I did some digging, and here's what I found ...

Looks to me like actual OG is more like 1.064, and the champagne yeast kicks the attenuation up to 90% or so to hit that 7.6%ABV.

So yeah, this recipe you found isn't a very convincing clone.

http://brooklynbrewery.com/brooklyn-bee ... orachi-ace

Spec Sheet

Style: Single-hop Farmhouse Saison
Malts: German two-row Pilsner Malt
Additions: Brewer’s white sugar
Hops: Washington-grown Sorachi Ace
Yeast: Our special Belgian strain (primary); Champagne yeast (secondary)
Alcohol by Volume: 7.6%
IBUs: 34
Original Gravity: 15.7° Plato
Calories: 208 (per 12oz)
Food Pairings: Pork buns, fish tacos, shrimp, smoked salmon, sushi, prosciutto, curries, salads, grilled meats and fresh goat cheese (such as Westfield Bulk Chevre.)
Availability: Year-round
Format: 750ml cork-finished bottles and (new in 2012) draft
Awards

Dazzbrew, One or the other, just don't use the percent sign.