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Post #1726 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
PistolPatch wrote:
paudle wrote:Another question that I came across with my last brew is how to determine the volume at end of boil. I just got a chiller that worked great but having it in there makes the calculation difficult.
There's several options here. Yeaty and MS have mentioned a few and the displacement thing mentioned can be dealt with in the last two lines of Section X but...
?
PistolPatch wrote: The volume measurement we really want and that is most important is the VAW or 'Volume of Ambient Wort'. In PR1.3 this was called EOBV-A which meant the end of boil volume once chilled to ambient temperature. VAW is EOBV-A and it's pretty easy to measure later in the brew day once things have been transferred to a fermentor (or no-chill cube).

Hot measurements, even without a chiller in the way, are difficult to take with much accuracy. Too much swelling occurs, lots of steam etc. They are a PITA. The easiest way to do it is once the beer is chilled. You can either trust in the measurements on the side of your fermentor to get VIF and, if you have say a five litre jug that you trust the graduations of, you can pour your KFL into that to measure it.

KFL + VIF = VAW

If you have bathroom scales, you can weigh the wort and it won't matter if it is hot or cold. So, if you no-chill, this could be an easy option. I'll add this into the next BIABacus but there's how it would go...

[I'm using metric because 1 litre of water at ambient temperature weighs 1 kilogram.]

If your fermentor weighed 500 grams before adding your wort and 2300 grams after, this obviously means your wort weighs 22500 grams (22.5 kilos). This does not mean you have 22.5 litres of wort though as the gravity of the wort affects this. For example, if your GAW (usually the same as OG) was 1.050, then this means that the wort is actually 5.0% heavier than the same volume of water so...

The real weight of the wort would be 22.5 / 1.05 = 21.43 litres.
My eyes bugged out here when I saw math and this idea being added to the BIABacus. :) If the 22.5 liters of wort is 5.0% heavier than the same volume of water, wouldn't it be; 22.5 * 1.05 = 23.63 litres
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 14 Mar 2014, 07:12, edited 6 times in total.
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Post #1727 made 12 years ago
by cwier60
Mad_Scientist wrote:My eyes bugged out here when I saw math and this idea being added to the BIABacus. :) If the 22.5 liters of wort is 5.0% heavier than the same volume of water, wouldn't it be; 22.5 * 1.05 = 23.63 litres
No, PP was right. Think about it. If the density is higher, then a smaller amount of liquid (wort) has the same weight. Therefore, the volume is less.
Last edited by cwier60 on 14 Mar 2014, 08:27, edited 6 times in total.
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Post #1728 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
paudle wrote:For the caramels I put it in as Degrees Lovibond. From your explanation I am confused. As you are implying it should be SRM. Looking on some searches online doesn't seem to clear up which is which. It seems like a lot of place just say they are are equal which leads to confusion. However with our conversion calculator in the the BIABacus it does make a difference in the value.
I think you are right Paudle.

Colour is yet another one of those ridiculous areas of brewing which have way too many systems and atrocious definitions. I remember researching it all and thinking, "This is as bad, if not worse, than hop IBU formulas."

I've just had a quick re-visit to the subject and a few things are coming back to me. For example, you'll often read that SRM equals lovibond but as you and the BIABacus say, they don't. But, if you look at say BeerSmith, at Crystal 60L malt, it will tell you that it is 60SRM which it is not.

And then of course, you have new and old EBC measurements. That's really inersting as some Euroopeans still use the old system and some the new. How do you find out what system they are using? The only way I can see is to ring them and ask them.

Go figure eh :smoke:.

My advice would be to do as you did and trust in the BIABacus as it would have been well-researched at the time.

Thanks for pulling me up on this :salute:,
PP
Mad_Scientist wrote:
PistolPatch wrote:
paudle wrote:Another question that I came across with my last brew is how to determine the volume at end of boil. I just got a chiller that worked great but having it in there makes the calculation difficult.
There's several options here. Yeaty and MS have mentioned a few and the displacement thing mentioned can be dealt with in the last two lines of Section X but...
?
I didn't want to elaborate on that too much as I think just measuring VIF and KFL is the most practical way of determining VAW.

If you did want to measure your VFO with a chiller in it, on the first brew, you would have to measure the volume before the chiller went in and then immediately after. Let's say that the volume increased by 2.5 litres with the chiller added. You would then go to the first line of Section U and see how many cm = 2.5 L. If it was 1.6 cm you would type that on the last line of Section X.

Lots of possible problems with that method though which was another eadon I didn't want to go into it. Displacement ma bary on batch size. It may vary depending on kettle shape as well. All too hard really. Just measure KFL and VIF.

Measuring VFO is really more useful for no-chillers or those with plate chillers. Even these brewers though should go by weight or ambient temps if they possibly can because hot volume measurements are very subjective/hard to measure.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 14 Mar 2014, 19:45, edited 6 times in total.
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Post #1730 made 12 years ago
by BDP
Hi,

I'm planning my first BIAB recipe, taken from Brewing Classic Styles "HAROLD-IS-WEIZEN". Having read some posts already, it appears that folks are familiar with the specs of these recipes, and believe that they have 'integrity'. The attached BIABacus file should have most of the details needed as they relate to the original recipe (page 192).
BIABacus PR1.3K - Weizen - BCS Harold-is-weizen - Batch 0.xls
Since it's my first attempt at using the BIABacus, I'd really appreciate some feedback on how it's been filled in, etc. This will be my first BIAB brew :yum: !

I can appreciate how much work has gone into developing this worksheet, so kudos to the folks who put this together and made it available :clap: .

If anyone has brewed this recipe, I'd also like to hear about your experience and end-product details.

Cheers!
Bryce
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Last edited by BDP on 22 Mar 2014, 09:11, edited 6 times in total.

Post #1732 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hey there Bryce,

Sorry you haven't received an answer sooner. Occasionally you have to wait a little while in this thread unfortunately. Your file is pretty good so there isn't too much to go through - good on you :salute:.

The main worry in the file is that in Section D, you have put the Volume into Fermentor from the original recipe into the Volume of Ambient Wort. This is an easy mistake to make especially as this critical volume number is almost impossible to find in most recipes. VAW though is not VIF. It is VIF plus your Kettle to Fermentor Loss. I other words, VAW is the same as the amount of wort you would have in your kettle once it is chilled.

In the BCS recipes the VAW is 22.7 L but there is a problem with this. The book is based on extract recipes and it does not allow for the lower utilisation you get in an all-grain recipe due to hop oils clinging to the extra trub that occurs in all-grain so...
To convert BCS hop bills to all-grain, set the VAW on the first line of Section D to 20.19 L. This will result in you using 12.5% extra hops. Leave the second line of Section D blank.
This is what Hints was referring to above.

Other Points...

1. On the right hand side of Section D you have typed things you already have on the left such as 'Hallertau' '4.0' and '60'. There is no need for this. The only time you type something on the right is if it is different from the left. So, if your Hallertau hops in your freezer or that you bought were 5% AA, then you would type 5.0 on the right under 'AA%' and the BIABacus will adjust, "What you will use..." accordingly.

2.Do a 90 minute mash. See here.

Good on you Bryce :peace:,
PP

[ERROR IN FILE: See the next two posts.]
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 23 Mar 2014, 18:48, edited 6 times in total.
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Post #1733 made 12 years ago
by BDP
Thanks for the great feedback and clear explanations, PP :salute: . One question: should I remove the IBU value from the second line in section D as per the statement "Leave the second line of Section D blank"? I noticed you left in the value of 13; that's why I have to ask.

I'm also grateful that you noticed the low mash duration - I expect that the longer 90 minute mash duration will make a big difference.

I'm still waiting for a 60L pot that I have on order, before I can brew this recipe. But at least I'm ready now :) .

Cheers
Bryce

Post #1734 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
No worries BDP and thanks very much for asking about the above :thumbs:.

That was definitely an error sorry. Yep, get rid of the 13. (I'll edit my post above. It might seem pedantic but uncorrected errors like that waste everyone's time, especially newer brewers.)

The 90 minute mash will make a difference on most brews. On some it will not as some base grains convert faster than others. Proof can be seen in this thread.

:peace:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 24 Mar 2014, 18:10, edited 6 times in total.
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Post #1735 made 12 years ago
by DaveDoran
HI All,

Gonna have a crack at this soon. Haven't bought anything except the yeast and hops so everything else can change.
Brutal honesty appreciated.
Thanks,

Dave

PS. Original Recipe from Les at AHB forum. Very reliable brewer with lots of success.
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Post #1736 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
DaveDoran wrote:Brutal honesty appreciated.
Thanks,

Dave

PS. Original Recipe from Les at AHB forum. Very reliable brewer with lots of success.
If that is Les the Weizguy, he was kind enough to host me on my travels from Brisbane to Sydney before heading to Perth. If tht is the Les then the recipe will have some integrity but, the first thing Dave for you is to link us to Les's recipe.

You want to copy that recipe. We can't know if you have copied it correctly unless we see the source. And, Les like many other brewers may not publish his recipe in a format that answers all the questions needed to duplicate it properly.

The biggest problem you will have in duplicating most recipes is in filling out the first two lines of Section D. You gave filled out both but in nearly all cases only one of those lines should be filled out.

It's been a long time but something tells me that Les uses Pro-Mash. If so, then that will be another issue. If you are in contact with him, let him know we are probably overdue for a chat and while we are chatting, we might be able to sort your recipe out.

;)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 26 Mar 2014, 20:59, edited 6 times in total.
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Post #1737 made 12 years ago
by DaveDoran
Thanks PP. Yes was Les the Weizguy. Have run the recipe by him (this one is just a vary slight variation to his one) and he has given it his blessing.
Hoping to brew next weekend.

Thanks

Post #1738 made 12 years ago
by toklas
Ok, here goes. I'm trying to make the switch over from beersmith to biabacus. I absolutely see that it's just better, overall. I can post my recipe if necessary, but that whole part makes sense to me. The part i'm confused about is with trub management.

I am not consistent with dumping trub into the fermentor. If my BB is free, usually i have a few litres (3-4L)of trub i leave out of the fermentor. Great, i get how to enter those numbers with this method.

But today, i'm using a fermentation bucket. With buckets, (because i'm lazy) I like to just dump the whole kettle contents in, trub and all, after chilling. So this means that my EOBV-A is going to contain the trub. Should i set my KFL to 0 and set my FPL to 4L? When i do that, it changes my grain amounts. Or should i just subtract an estimate of 3L from my measured EOBV-A and every following measurement?

Post #1739 made 12 years ago
by olleman
Hello,

I'm trying to input this recipe into the calc to be able to scale it for my kettle which is 32 cm * 32 cm. But I'm not ending up with the same FG figure as well as amount of water as the original recipe calls for. Could someone please have a look at what I've done and hopefully find any problems?

----------
Original
----------
Malt:
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4,50 kg Viking Pale Ale (4,6 EBC) Grain 90,00 %
0,50 kg Viking Crystal 100 (100,0 EBC) Grain 10,00 %
Humle:
Amount Item Type % or IBU
20,00 gm Simcoe [12,20 %] (60 min) Hops 28,3 IBU
30,00 gm Cascade [7,00 %] (15 min) Hops 12,1 IBU
20,00 gm Cascade [7,00 %] (0 min) Hops -
20,00 gm Simcoe [12,20 %] (0 min) Hops

Amount hops: 130,00 gram
Bitterness Ratio: 0,720 (IBU/FG)

Yeast:
Amount Item Type % or IBU
1 Pkgs Safale US-05 Yeast Ale

Mash:
Total Grain Weight: 5,00 kg
BIAB
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
0 min Inmäskning Add 28,50 L of water at 41,7 C 40,0 C
60 min Mash Heat to 67,0 C over 25 min 67,0 C
10 min Step Heat to 75,0 C over 10 min 75,0 C

Fermentation:
7 days at 18,0 C
7 Days at 20,0 C

Bottle conditioning:
Bottle beer at 20,0 C with 128 g of sugar.
CO2 Volym: 2,6

My try in BIABacus:


[center]BIABacus Pre-Release 1.3 RECIPE REPORT[/center]
[center]BIAB Recipe Designer, Calculator and Scaler.[/center]
[center](Please visit http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the latest version.)[/center]
[center]Pale ALE (Weinkeller) - Batch 1[/center]

Recipe Overview

Brewer: Weinkeller
Style: APA
Source Recipe Link:

Original Gravity (OG): 1,056
IBU's (Tinseth): 43,4
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 0,77
Colour: 23,8 EBC = 12,1 SRM
ABV%: 5,42

Efficiency into Kettle (EIK): 73 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 65,8 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash)

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 60 mins at 67 C = 152,6 F
Boil: 60 min
Ferment: 7 days at 18 C = 64,4 F

Volumes & Gravities

Total Water Needed (TWN): 25,76 L = 6,81 G
Volume into Kettle (VIK): 23,53 L = 6,22 G @ 1,048
End of Boil Volume - Ambient (EOBV-A): 19,31 L = 5,1 G @ 1,056
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 17,4 L = 4,6 G @ 1,056
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 16,11 L = 4,26 G @ 1,014 assuming apparent attenuation of 75 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

Note: If extracts, sugars or adjuncts are not followed by an exclamation mark, go to http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (needs link)

90% Viking pale ale (4,7 EBC = 2,4 SRM) 4502 grams = 9,93 pounds
10% Viking crystal (150 EBC = 76,1 SRM) 500 grams = 1,1 Pounds

The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

30,4 IBU Simcoe Pellets (13,2%AA) 18,5 grams = 0,652 ounces at 60 mins
13 IBU Cascade Pellets (5%AA) 42 grams = 1,482 ounces at 15 mins
0 IBU Cascade Pellets (5%AA) 28 grams = 0,988 ounces at 0 mins
0 IBU Simcoe Pellets (13,2%AA) 18,5 grams = 0,652 ounces at 0 mins

Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash) for 60 mins at 67 C = 152,6 F

Mashout for for 10 mins at 75 C = 167 F


Miscellaneous Ingredients

1/2 Tab Whirfloc (Boil) 5 Mins - Clarity

Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Hopsock Used: Y

Chilling Method: Immersion Chiller (Employed 0 mins after boil end.)

Fermentation& Conditioning

Fermention: Safale US-05 for 7 days at 18 C = 64,4 F
Diacetyl Rest: 7 days at 20 C = 68 F


Req. Volumes of CO2: 2,6
Serving Temp: 6 C = 42,8 F
Condition for 7 days.
Consume within 6 months.

Special Instructions/Notes on this Beer

Thanks for any help!

,Olle
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Last edited by olleman on 31 Mar 2014, 19:03, edited 6 times in total.

Post #1740 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
DaveDoran, toklas and olleman...

DaveDoran: Excellent! Please say hi from me and give him my best ;). He was a great help to me in my early AG days.

toklas: Hi there toklas. I think post your file. Your thinking is correct but there is one thing I think you are missing which will be easier to explain if you post your file :peace:.

olleman: Okay olle, a few things first...

Looks like this is your first post here. Somehow you have slipped through the net but normally, you need to read through the first forum on the site and then make an introductory post in this thread. Make sure you do that before you post back here as that is your "base post" where others can get an idea where you are from etc.

The next worry is that the BIABacus file you posted here is not the same as the one in the report. The one posted below seems to be the original NRB's APA file.

No matter ;)...

From the report, it looks, as far as I can tell without the file, that you have done a great job. Let's look at your worries...

Firstly, the amount of water the original recipe calls for will be different from what you need due to different evaporation rates, different efficiencies into boil and different losses/wastage in vessel transfers.

But, the original recipe report above lacks a lot of critical info. For example, there is no Original Gravity figure published. Without that, we are pretty much stuck in our tracks. We really can't go any further.

So...

1. Do your introductory post.
2. Come back here and give as much info, preferably a direct link to the original recipe. (Hopefully that will give us an OG, FG and much more.)
3. Post your correct BIABacus file.

Also, have a read of this thread. It is a bit cumbersome but a few posts there will show you how many problems there are with recipes you stumble upon on the net and even in books.

Welcome aboard,
PP.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 31 Mar 2014, 21:32, edited 6 times in total.
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Post #1741 made 12 years ago
by olleman
Hello again,

I can't belive how sloppy I was when doing that post, I was in a bit of a hurry. Thanks for taking the time to explain to me instead of just disregarding me. I have had a look at the thread you referred me to and I think my recipe has quite a good integrity when I remember to paste the whole thing, see below :)

I missed the first portion of the recipe when I pasted it so here we go again (the original link is in Swedish). I have also attached the correct file this time :)
I'm trying to input this recipe into the calc to be able to scale it for my kettle which is 32 cm * 32 cm. But I'm not ending up with the same FG figure as well as amount of water as the original recipe calls for. Could someone please have a look at what I've done and hopefully find any problems?
----------
Original
----------
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Batch Size: 20,00 L
Boil Size: 23,99 L
Estimated OG: 1,056 SG
Estimated FG: 1,013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5,56 %
Estimated Color: 18,8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 40,4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 73,00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Malt:
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4,50 kg Viking Pale Ale (4,6 EBC) Grain 90,00 %
0,50 kg Viking Crystal 100 (100,0 EBC) Grain 10,00 %
Humle:
Amount Item Type % or IBU
20,00 gm Simcoe [12,20 %] (60 min) Hops 28,3 IBU
30,00 gm Cascade [7,00 %] (15 min) Hops 12,1 IBU
20,00 gm Cascade [7,00 %] (0 min) Hops -
20,00 gm Simcoe [12,20 %] (0 min) Hops

Amount hops: 130,00 gram
Bitterness Ratio: 0,720 (IBU/FG)

Yeast:
Amount Item Type % or IBU
1 Pkgs Safale US-05 Yeast Ale

Mash:
Total Grain Weight: 5,00 kg
BIAB
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
0 min Inmäskning Add 28,50 L of water at 41,7 C 40,0 C
60 min Mash Heat to 67,0 C over 25 min 67,0 C
10 min Step Heat to 75,0 C over 10 min 75,0 C

Fermentation:
7 days at 18,0 C
7 Days at 20,0 C

Bottle conditioning:
Bottle beer at 20,0 C with 128 g of sugar.
CO2 Volym: 2,6
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Last edited by olleman on 31 Mar 2014, 22:36, edited 6 times in total.

Post #1742 made 12 years ago
by rpt
I have some comments on olleman's file. You've set the efficiency to 73%. You should let the BIABacus estimate the efficiency as it will depend on the recipe. Your mash volume exceeds your kettle size. There is a warning for this. Finally, the FG is only ever a guess as it depends on the yeast, mash temperature etc.

Post #1743 made 12 years ago
by toklas
I hope this attempt at attaching the file works. The recipe is a little strange, but i just wanted to get rid of leftover 2lbs of pale malt and the guy at my lhbs convinced me to try nelson sauvin. I really dislike ipa's, so i just wanted a simple pale recipe to give poor nelson a chance.

So for this, i didn't measure the still-hot post boil volume (so EOBV is blank), but i did measure the volume post chill. I ended up with 21L in my fermentor, but I entered 18L to pretend i lost 3L to trub.

Also, if the grain absorbtion rate seems off, it's because i like to steal and freeze a few cups of pre-boil wort that i use to prepare next brew's starter.
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Post #1744 made 12 years ago
by olleman
rpt wrote:I have some comments on olleman's file. You've set the efficiency to 73%. You should let the BIABacus estimate the efficiency as it will depend on the recipe. Your mash volume exceeds your kettle size. There is a warning for this. Finally, the FG is only ever a guess as it depends on the yeast, mash temperature etc.
At this point I am only trying to copy the original recipe to get it correct in BIABacus to then be able to scale it. I tried to follow the method described in one of the first posts in this long thread howto do this hence the odd (VIF) at 17,4l and the efficency @ 73% since it was the number in the original recipe.

In the end I´d like to scale the recipe to make most of my 25l kettle.

,Olle
Last edited by olleman on 01 Apr 2014, 01:01, edited 6 times in total.

Post #1745 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
Welcome to the forum Olle.

I feel you have copied the recipe well based on your latest file/post. The grain/hop matches the original to the 'what you will use' side. I would say the original recipe has integrity.

Where you will go from here, I guess you know, is to remove the 73% efficiency, do a 90 mins. mash, 90 mins. boil, and to scale down your VIF in section b (maybe to 13 L), then remove the EOBV-A value in section d and enter 40.4 as the IBU Tinseth.

:peace:

MS
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Post #1746 made 12 years ago
by olleman
Mad_Scientist wrote:Welcome to the forum Olle.

I feel you have copied the recipe well based on your latest file/post. The grain/hop matches the original to the 'what you will use' side. I would say the original recipe has integrity.

Where you will go from here, I guess you know, is to remove the 73% efficiency, do a 90 mins. mash, 90 mins. boil, and to scale down your VIF in section b (maybe to 13 L), then remove the EOBV-A value in section d and enter 40.4 as the IBU Tinseth.

:peace:

MS
You managed to answer my post in my other thread as well. Think I've got this figured enough to start trying now, thanks a million!
Last edited by olleman on 01 Apr 2014, 13:54, edited 6 times in total.

Post #1747 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Okay, I think rpt and MS are sorting olleman so I will concentrate on...

Toklas

I'll just run through your file from A to Z first and make some comments...

B: Try and do a 90 minute boil when doing all-grain. Don't treat a 60 minute boil as standard. (Search posts by me that have "bavarian" in them - I think :think:.)

D: A VAW of 6.5 L is a very small batch to copy from as a matter of interest. Just wondering where you got that number from as I really don't think you are copying it from an existing recipe. When not copying a recipe, use the second line of section D and just type in your desired IBU's.

E: Change 152 C to 66.7 C.

H: 21 days is too long for fermenting an ale. 14 days is heaps.

Your Question

Okey dokey ;). Your confused on trub management. Okay, a few things...

EOBV-A or what we now call VAW will always contain your kettle trub. If VAW changes, then your grain bill changes. In your BIABacus file you have a KFL of 3.00 L and an FPL of 0.67 L. 3.00 plus 0.67 does not equal 4.0 if you know what I mean. Your grain bill will not change as long as you ensure that your KFL and FPL add up to 3.67.

If that doesn't make sense after a bit of pondering, make sure you keep asking questions. Also, grab a beer and look at this. That might show you how the critical volume point is EOBV-A (what we now call VAW).

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 01 Apr 2014, 20:19, edited 6 times in total.
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Post #1749 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
DaveDoran wrote:Hi All,

Thinking of doing the attached recipe. Havent bought any ingredients except have the hops already. Please have a look when you can and comment. Recipe came from here
http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/r" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... ng-helles/

Tried to scale it down using maths and my brain. Doesn't always work out so good.
Cheers,

Dave
You can enter the grams directly into section C as 6460, 200, 73 and 73. :)
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 03 Apr 2014, 07:14, edited 6 times in total.
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