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Looking for some recipe help on first BIAB brew

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by desmosteve
Hi Folks, I signed up here recently and have been soaking up info from a lot of useful posts, but there comes a point when you can read so much and get overwhelmed with info, so I've decided to get underway and need some help!

I want to get a first, simple brew on the go, BIAB style
I have a gas burner and a st/st pot of 70 litre capacity, 43cm wide by 43 cm high, along with the bags, FV, keg, cooling bath etc

I have 5000 grms of Maris Otter 5 EBC, 1000 grms of Munich malt 25 EBC, 100 grms of 10.9 alpha Amarillo hop flowers and a sachet of US05 yeast
I'd like to try a hoppy APA style beer, 23 litre volume into the keg or thereabouts.

To be honest I've looked on so many places and got so many different inputs and recipes, my head was starting to spin. Main issue was the malts seemed unavailable to me (UK based) or needed some sort of interpretation to identify, so I pitched in and got what I mention above, hoping that it forms the basis of a stable and straightforward brew for my first shot at BIAB

I've had a play with the BIABAcus and loooked thru the NRB all Amarillo recipe, which looks close, and I'm left with a few questions that I'd appreciate some wisdom and guidance on;
Can someone suggest a grain bill using what I have available
Similarly, a hop bill and time schedule for adding the hops
Finally, a bit of confirmation about water volumes - starting volume and what losses I can expect. The NRB recipe seems to reference that but I'd really appreciate some confirmation

I'm asking a lot but hope someone can offer a few bits of info that will get me underway and on the right tracks
Needless to say, any tips will be hugely appreciated and a big help. I'll toast you when it's done
Thanks in advance guys :peace:
Steve

Post #2 made 12 years ago
by thughes
You've got some good ingredients for an APA. It's been a while since I looked at NRB's Amarillo recipe but I do know it's a tasty brew. I'm no BIABacus expert but can assure you that someone will be along soon to plug your numbers in and get you started.

---Todd
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Post #3 made 12 years ago
by Rick
This is what I would do.

I've never used munich before, but I know many like it for smash APA/IPA's. I'm also pretty sure Victory Brewing's Hop Devil and Headwaters both use 100% munich, but I've never confirmed that. I love both these beers, even though they are a bit malty for my taste. Anyway, this is why I tossed all of it in there .. seems like you can't really go wrong with the amounts.

I'm not sure if I can put a BIABacus file here, so I'll just copy the report for you here.

as far as losses, the file is a great estimator, but a lot of that depends on you.


[center]BIABacus Pre-Release 1.3I RECIPE REPORT[/center]
[center]BIAB Recipe Designer, Calculator and Scaler.[/center]
[center](Please visit http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the latest version.)[/center]
[center]Recipe Batch Number and Dates[/center]

Recipe Overview

Brewer: desmosteve
Style: APA
Source Recipe Link:

Original Gravity (OG): 1.054
IBU's (Tinseth): 39.9
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 0.74
Colour: 12.1 EBC = 6.1 SRM
ABV%: 5.64

Efficiency into Boil (EIB): 81.8 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 70.1 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash)

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 90 mins at 65 C = 149 F
Boil: 90 min
Ferment: 14 days at 18 C = 64.4 F

Volumes & Gravities
(Note that VAW below is the Volume at Flame-Out (VFO) less shrinkage.)

Total Water Needed (TWN): 39.34 L = 10.39 G
Volume into Boil (VIB): 37.04 L = 9.78 G @ 1.04
Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW): 26.65 L = 7.04 G @ 1.054
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 22.84 L = 6.03 G @ 1.054
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 21.15 L = 5.59 G @ 1.01 assuming apparent attenuation of 81 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

Note: If extracts, sugars or adjuncts are not followed by an exclamation mark, go to http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (needs link)

83.3% Maris Otter (5 EBC = 2.5 SRM) 4950 grams = 10.91 pounds
16.7% Munich (25 EBC = 12.7 SRM) 990 grams = 2.18 pounds

The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

29.2 IBU Amarillo Flowers (10.9%AA) 30 grams = 1.058 ounces at 90 mins
10.7 IBU Amarillo Flowers (10.9%AA) 28 grams = 0.988 ounces at 12 mins [*see notes]
0 IBU Amarillo Flowers (10.9%AA) 42 grams = 1.482 ounces at 0 mins (Dry Hopped)

Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash) for 90 mins at 65 C = 149 F

Miscellaneous Ingredients

1/2 Tab Whirfloc (Boil) 5 Mins - Clarity

Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Hopsock Used: n

Chilling Method: Immersion Chiller (Employed 30 mins after boil end.)

Fermentation& Conditioning

Fermention: Safale US-05 for 14 days at 18 C = 64.4 F

Secondary Used: N
Crash-Chilled: N
Filtered: N
Req. Volumes of CO2: 2.25

Condition for 14 days.
Consume within 3 months.

Special Instructions/Notes on this Beer

FO/12min = Add hops at flame out/0 minutes. 212-180F Hop Stand for 30 mins before chilling. 12 minute value represents bittering adjustment for hop stand. Dry hop 42g Amarillo for 5-7 days, or keg hop?
Last edited by Rick on 07 Dec 2013, 02:20, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #4 made 12 years ago
by Rick
... aaand here is a weaker version for about the volume you were looking for.



[center]BIABacus Pre-Release 1.3I RECIPE REPORT[/center]
[center]BIAB Recipe Designer, Calculator and Scaler.[/center]
[center](Please visit http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the latest version.)[/center]
[center]Recipe Batch Number and Dates[/center]

Recipe Overview

Brewer: desmosteve
Style: APA
Source Recipe Link:

Original Gravity (OG): 1.05
IBU's (Tinseth): 36.8
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 0.74
Colour: 11.4 EBC = 5.8 SRM
ABV%: 5.22

Efficiency into Boil (EIB): 82.7 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 70.9 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash)

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 90 mins at 65 C = 149 F
Boil: 90 min
Ferment: 14 days at 18 C = 64.4 F

Volumes & Gravities
(Note that VAW below is the Volume at Flame-Out (VFO) less shrinkage.)

Total Water Needed (TWN): 41.73 L = 11.03 G
Volume into Boil (VIB): 39.54 L = 10.44 G @ 1.038
Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW): 29.05 L = 7.67 G @ 1.05
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 24.9 L = 6.58 G @ 1.05
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 23.06 L = 6.09 G @ 1.01 assuming apparent attenuation of 81 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

Note: If extracts, sugars or adjuncts are not followed by an exclamation mark, go to http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (needs link)

83.3% Maris Otter (5 EBC = 2.5 SRM) 4940 grams = 10.89 pounds
16.7% Munich (25 EBC = 12.7 SRM) 988 grams = 2.18 pounds

The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

25.9 IBU Amarillo Flowers (10.9%AA) 28 grams = 0.987 ounces at 90 mins
10.9 IBU Amarillo Flowers (10.9%AA) 30 grams = 1.057 ounces at 12 mins [*see notes]
0 IBU Amarillo Flowers (10.9%AA) 42 grams = 1.48 ounces at 0 mins (Dry Hopped)

Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash) for 90 mins at 65 C = 149 F

Miscellaneous Ingredients

1/2 Tab Whirfloc (Boil) 5 Mins - Clarity

Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Hopsock Used: n

Chilling Method: Immersion Chiller (Employed 30 mins after boil end.)

Fermentation& Conditioning

Fermention: Safale US-05 for 14 days at 18 C = 64.4 F

Secondary Used: N
Crash-Chilled: N
Filtered: N
Req. Volumes of CO2: 2.25

Condition for 14 days.
Consume within 3 months.

Special Instructions/Notes on this Beer

FO/12min = Add hops at flame out/0 minutes. 212-180F Hop Stand for 30 mins before chilling. 12 minute value represents bittering adjustment for hop stand. Dry hop 42g Amarillo for 5-7 days, or keg hop?
Last edited by Rick on 07 Dec 2013, 02:43, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #5 made 12 years ago
by desmosteve
Thanks for the info guys, particularly Rick for taking the time to run through the examples - much appreciated!
Plan to get started soon using this as a basis, let you know how it goes

Cheers!
Steve

Post #6 made 12 years ago
by Rick
You're welcome!

I brewed an APA similar to this hop schedule, and it turned out fantastic. Today I'm doing a double batch for more data points, and to test out a new water profile.

I was cleared to give you the biabacus file, so here it is for the first one. I didn't save #2, but it's just a couple easy tweaks away.

Also, I'm not sure if you are messing with water chemistry? It should turn out fine, but I tossed in some gypsum for help bringing out the hop bitterness. Now that I have my results back from Ward labs, I'm able to tweak future batches to Bru'n'water's Pale Ale profile.
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Post #7 made 12 years ago
by desmosteve
Thanks again Rick, that's a big help

Only one query left;
Can you pls just confirm what's the plain English version of the hopping instructions as below?
FO/12min = Add hops at flame out/0 minutes. 212-180F Hop Stand for 30 mins before chilling. 12 minute value represents bittering adjustment for hop stand. Dry hop 42g Amarillo for 5-7 days, or keg hop?

I'm reading it as a shot of hops at the start of the boil, add more 12 mins from end of boil.....but do the last shot just go in at Flameout and leave to steep for 30 mins then rack off, or do I add them to the keg and leave in there?

Thanks again buddy

Post #8 made 12 years ago
by Rick
desmosteve wrote:Thanks again Rick, that's a big help

Only one query left;
Can you pls just confirm what's the plain English version of the hopping instructions as below?
FO/12min = Add hops at flame out/0 minutes. 212-180F Hop Stand for 30 mins before chilling. 12 minute value represents bittering adjustment for hop stand. Dry hop 42g Amarillo for 5-7 days, or keg hop?

I'm reading it as a shot of hops at the start of the boil, add more 12 mins from end of boil.....but do the last shot just go in at Flameout and leave to steep for 30 mins then rack off, or do I add them to the keg and leave in there?

Thanks again buddy
first addition you have correct. Second addition is at flame out, I'll provide an article explaining why I used a 12min value (instead of 0) further. Alpha acids will still isomerize in that temp range, so I had to account for it. I'm on my phone, so i'll edit the link back in after I post.

Third addition is your choice really. You can either dry hop in the fermenter, or add them to the keg. Both are pretty popular, but I leave that up to you.

edit: here is the link. Using that value allows the BIABacus to calculate roughly what the IBU's will be for the recipe. I didn't want it to be a surprise for you later. :)
Last edited by Rick on 08 Dec 2013, 03:50, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #10 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
Rick wrote:
Second addition is at flame out, I'll provide an article explaining why I used a 12min value (instead of 0) further. Alpha acids will still isomerize in that temp range, so I had to account for it.

edit: here is the link. Using that value allows the BIABacus to calculate roughly what the IBU's will be for the recipe.
Hey Rick,
How did you come up with 12 mins.?

EDIT: Guessing it's 1 min. per 1% AA (a 10% utilization rate)
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 10 Dec 2013, 07:09, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #11 made 12 years ago
by Rick
Mad_Scientist wrote:
Rick wrote:
Second addition is at flame out, I'll provide an article explaining why I used a 12min value (instead of 0) further. Alpha acids will still isomerize in that temp range, so I had to account for it.

edit: here is the link. Using that value allows the BIABacus to calculate roughly what the IBU's will be for the recipe.
Hey Rick,
How did you come up with 12 mins.?

EDIT: Guessing it's 1 min. per 1% AA (a 10% utilization rate)
I'd have to look through my bookmarks to be sure, but I think I settled on a regular 30 minute addition to the boil being around 20% AA utilization. I just calculated IBU for that, and then cut that IBU calculation in half to satisfy the 10% utilization rate noted in the article. 12 mins seemed to get me closest to the number, and this also seemed to back up many anecdotes I saw from other brewers around the web.
Last edited by Rick on 10 Dec 2013, 09:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #12 made 12 years ago
by desmosteve
So, I finally got the show on the road yesterday, all went well for a first BIAB session and some lessons were learned along the way that will help next time

Followed the schedule from the BIABacus notes Rick provided and noted a few variations, mostly the amount evaporated in the boil was less than forecast and I ended up with around 28 litres after the boil at a gravity of 1.040, have to take that into account next time
Hopped it with 30 gms for 90 mins, another 30 for the last 12 mins and put the last 40 gms in the FV
Mashed at 65 deg C and it held the set temp for the whole 90 mins mash without losing a degree, the kettle was well insulated
Finished last night at 21-00 (note to self - start earlier in the day next time) and at 08-00 today the airlock was bubbling well as the US-05 got off to a flying start

I took lots of notes at each stage of the process, so will be tidying those up and reviewing to see what I can take from the first session, but generally all went well - I think. 40 litres of hot water is a bit much to be toting around the workshop, so some thought will be given to the process flow for next time, my back aches :angry:

Smells great.........if all's ok, it's gonna be called Steve's Shortest Day APA (brewed on 21st December) :thumbs: , if not it was just a warm up ;)

Kudos to Rick for the help and advice..........Cheers! :thumbs:

Post #13 made 12 years ago
by Nuff
desmosteve wrote:Sthe amount evaporated in the boil was less than forecast and I ended up with around 28 litres after the boil at a gravity of 1.040, have to take that into account next time
Well done on your first BIAB desmosteve.

I have just written a post here that will also apply here. Read it and the other link it contains as they will explain why you cannot take anything onto account on one brew.

To help Rick be able to make some comment on any numbers you do have, post your completed BIABacus file here. Only fill in numbers that you did record though.
Last edited by Nuff on 23 Dec 2013, 07:36, edited 2 times in total.

Post #14 made 12 years ago
by desmosteve
Thanks Nuff, will take a stab at that and complete what I can........don't think I have all the data points, but fully understand your point about working on a trend rather than isolated snapshots from one brew

Christmas prep seems to be taking a priority today but will be back asap!
Cheers

Post #15 made 12 years ago
by Rick
desmosteve wrote:So, I finally got the show on the road yesterday, all went well for a first BIAB session and some lessons were learned along the way that will help next time

Followed the schedule from the BIABacus notes Rick provided and noted a few variations, mostly the amount evaporated in the boil was less than forecast and I ended up with around 28 litres after the boil at a gravity of 1.040, have to take that into account next time
Hopped it with 30 gms for 90 mins, another 30 for the last 12 mins and put the last 40 gms in the FV
Mashed at 65 deg C and it held the set temp for the whole 90 mins mash without losing a degree, the kettle was well insulated
Finished last night at 21-00 (note to self - start earlier in the day next time) and at 08-00 today the airlock was bubbling well as the US-05 got off to a flying start

I took lots of notes at each stage of the process, so will be tidying those up and reviewing to see what I can take from the first session, but generally all went well - I think. 40 litres of hot water is a bit much to be toting around the workshop, so some thought will be given to the process flow for next time, my back aches :angry:

Smells great.........if all's ok, it's gonna be called Steve's Shortest Day APA (brewed on 21st December) :thumbs: , if not it was just a warm up ;)

Kudos to Rick for the help and advice..........Cheers! :thumbs:
Excellent, that's one down! As Nuff said, I can't really get a feel for why OG was so low until I see the BIABacus file, so we can do that after the holidays as I'm certainly going to be away for the next week myself.

28L VFO is about what my files were aiming for, but I can't assume you brewed to those volumes, of course.

One reason I design my hop schedules this way, is to enable myself to lengthen the boil without great consequence. I've experienced differing evaporation rates, and learned that outside humidity/temp fluctuations can be a pretty huge factor for that. This type schedule has been my workaround until I have a few more data points to work with.

With a single 90m addition, and then nothing until flame out/hop stand, one can be very free to boil for quite a few more minutes without worry of significant IBU increase. Utilization is nearly topped out on that first addition by then.

With all that said, I know how it feels to get finished late on a brew day. Sometimes you just want it to be over with, and the lower OG is justified.

Here is a good read. Even though this is a single brew, and we cannot put too much weight on it ... this is a great post to bring awareness to what the issue *might* have been.

I do have questions as to what the following means, though ...
Another 30 for the last 12 mins and put the last 40 gms in the FV
This worries me, because the last 12 minutes should have had 0 additions. Maybe I'm just reading you wrong, you read me wrong, or you simply rewrote the hop schedule to suit what you believed better for your beer. All of which are fine, I'm just wondering what it means.

Also, putting that 40g into the fermenting vessel within 1 day of pitching may not be ideal. Not to worry though, I'm certain some aromas will be carried to the final product, but a lot of that is blowing out of the airlock right now.

Then again, I didn't specify when to add dry hops in my file, so part of that responsibility is on me. I just assume everybody knows how to perform the tasks that I don't go into detail about, or will at least ask questions or research the topic to find their own way. Perhaps you did that, but, I've never seen anyone add dry hops so close to pitching. Most at the very least will wait until the krausen starts dropping.

Those are just some minor nitpicks I have, you're still likely going to end up with a tasty brew. :drink:
Last edited by Rick on 23 Dec 2013, 21:17, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #16 made 11 years ago
by desmosteve
Just closing the loop on this, it turned out well and I'm happy

Taking Ricks feedback into account I added 3o gms of Cascade over the last 3 days in the FV and that added back some of what was lost out of the airlock

It drinks really well and isn't weak at all, not the smack in the face hoppiness of a big APA but really nice hoppy bitter
FG came out at 1008 from an OG of 1040. Took 2.5 weeks to get there at a steady 19 deg C

A few lessons learned, and took delivery of more grain and hops etc today so will be running another brew asap

Cheers
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