Yeah, I hope this doesn't stir up a hornet's nest like the topic tends to in other forums. I'm doing a BIAB oatmeal stout tomorrow and realized I hadn't done water adjustment calculations yet.
This is my water from our well:
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
CaCO3: 11
Very clean, little in there. From experience, I know that I can brew malty beers without adding anything and be ok. I also know that if I do hoppy beers they come out with a flat hop taste. The oatmeal stout I am doing is ~35 IBU and a BU:GU ~.5 so I should be ok doing nothing. The spreadsheets say I'd be around 5.6 pH doing nothing. But Ca, SO4 and MG are very low so I'd like to boost them. I'm getting better understanding this but still could use a hand if anyone cares to help out.
I am currently planning this for additions:
CaSO4: 2 grams
CaCl2: 5 grams
MgSO4: 3 grams
NaCl: 1 grams
With this resulting profile:
Mash Water (ppm):
Ca: 57
Mg: 10
Na: 19
Cl: 101
SO4: 74
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.36
Alkalinity (CaCO3): 11
RA: -36
Estimated pH: 5.52
How did I do?
TIA
Post #2 made 13 years ago
Oh and the ingredient list.
10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 76.92 %
2.00 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 15.38 %
0.50 lb Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 3.85 %
0.50 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 3.85 %
1.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 27.3 IBU
0.75 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (20 min) Hops 7.4 IBU
And 8.65 gallons of water in the mash.
10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 76.92 %
2.00 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 15.38 %
0.50 lb Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 3.85 %
0.50 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 3.85 %
1.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 27.3 IBU
0.75 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (20 min) Hops 7.4 IBU
And 8.65 gallons of water in the mash.
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Post #3 made 13 years ago
Hmm, quite clean source water by the looks, particularly for groundwater and you could do just about anything with it. I'm inclined to add stuff if there's a noticeable benefit, if you've not had trouble with this type of more malty beer with it before then I'd leave it as is.
OTOH, those are quite small quantities for the additions even if it was a smaller batch (eg. 5 gal), so certainly wouldn't hurt at all.
Sorry, this isn't much help... one brewer with two different answers already!
Probably won't be able to stir us up much over water additions, most of us around here are Australians and we just don't get that worked up over water chemistry, I know in the US and UK brewers seem to go just beserk over it. I recall seeing folks adjusting the water for Starsan (sanitiser) recently, I nearly fell off my chair!
But I can talk, I'll add some citric acid to it as I know my source water is slightly alkaline, they went the whole hog and mixed it up to a particular profile though. 
Useful tool.
OTOH, those are quite small quantities for the additions even if it was a smaller batch (eg. 5 gal), so certainly wouldn't hurt at all.
Sorry, this isn't much help... one brewer with two different answers already!
Probably won't be able to stir us up much over water additions, most of us around here are Australians and we just don't get that worked up over water chemistry, I know in the US and UK brewers seem to go just beserk over it. I recall seeing folks adjusting the water for Starsan (sanitiser) recently, I nearly fell off my chair!
But I can talk, I'll add some citric acid to it as I know my source water is slightly alkaline, they went the whole hog and mixed it up to a particular profile though. Useful tool.
Last edited by Ralph on 23 Oct 2010, 12:51, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #4 made 13 years ago
Yeah, the spreadsheet I use is partially formed from Palmer's book. I don't go nutty over it, most beers I do don't need the adjustment but if you've ever had a muddy hop flavored IPA you realize some beers do need some attention paid to chemistry. My belief is that if you are on one end of the spectrum or the other (hard or soft water) you probably can do a little and get a decent result, everyone else is splitting hairs mostly. If I had average water, I'd just play with chloride to sulfate and call it a day.
My target profile is just Palmer's generic beer for the minimum mineral levels. I adjust to the bottom end of the levels, then I play with chloride to sulfate ratio based on the maltiness/bitterness of the beer. I just try to get my predicted pH somewhere in the acceptable range of 5.2-5.7. I tried pH strips twice but for some reason both vials were duds so I gave up.
The above adjustment is for a 5 gallon in the carboy beer.
My target profile is just Palmer's generic beer for the minimum mineral levels. I adjust to the bottom end of the levels, then I play with chloride to sulfate ratio based on the maltiness/bitterness of the beer. I just try to get my predicted pH somewhere in the acceptable range of 5.2-5.7. I tried pH strips twice but for some reason both vials were duds so I gave up.
The above adjustment is for a 5 gallon in the carboy beer.
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Post #5 made 13 years ago
I'm using the version 2 of Th's which incorporates some of Braukaiser's thoughts. They still say the pH estimate is high. You are having the same problem I am with it all. But I still don't think there is a need to get nutty about it. I see it as a means to get me in the ballpark. I don't brew for competitions, I brew for me and so far, I am pleased.
I have not brewed the same beer twice with and without adjustment. But I've brewed enough beers to know that I need to adjust my chloride to sulfate ratio for hoppy beers or they just taste muddy. I also know my water is very clean so some salt additions to get me to minimum levels is my other goal. If I see the pH estimate high, I'll do some adjustment to bring it back down and step back from it all and see how much of what I am adding.
As far as adjusting for Starsan, although I am an Iodophor user and haven't used the stuff, as I understand it they adjust the pH so they can keep the solution stable for long storage periods. Some people keg it and use CO2 to force out small amounts. Others put it in spray bottles. Precisely why I like Iodophor, this $12 container is lasting me forever. I mix up either .75 gallons, 3 gallons, or 6 gallons depending on my process for that day. That's 1/2 tsp, 2 tsp, or 4 tsp of the stuff...not very much.
I have not brewed the same beer twice with and without adjustment. But I've brewed enough beers to know that I need to adjust my chloride to sulfate ratio for hoppy beers or they just taste muddy. I also know my water is very clean so some salt additions to get me to minimum levels is my other goal. If I see the pH estimate high, I'll do some adjustment to bring it back down and step back from it all and see how much of what I am adding.
As far as adjusting for Starsan, although I am an Iodophor user and haven't used the stuff, as I understand it they adjust the pH so they can keep the solution stable for long storage periods. Some people keg it and use CO2 to force out small amounts. Others put it in spray bottles. Precisely why I like Iodophor, this $12 container is lasting me forever. I mix up either .75 gallons, 3 gallons, or 6 gallons depending on my process for that day. That's 1/2 tsp, 2 tsp, or 4 tsp of the stuff...not very much.
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Post #6 made 13 years ago
Why do you say V2 is less accurate for BIAB?
Yeah, that one is way to complicated to be fun trying to do. He does know his stuff but gets too detailed. This is beer we are brewing after all.
Yeah, that one is way to complicated to be fun trying to do. He does know his stuff but gets too detailed. This is beer we are brewing after all.
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Post #7 made 13 years ago
Ah yes, now I know what you mean. Like I said, I feel comfortable that it gets me into the ballpark and my beer has improved since so I'm happy. I bought strips once and they came to me as duds. I complained and they sent another vial and those were duds too. They did check them at the warehouse and they supposedly worked there. Must be something in the mail system deactivating them?
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Post #8 made 13 years ago
Nope. Read outside. Read inside under halogens. The strips are off yellow in color and do not change a bit. I even dipped them in vinegar and got no color change whatsoever. They should have turned brown.
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Post #9 made 13 years ago
I found the pdf on the following site to be really useful. The starting point for the water they discuss is close to yours, very soft. If you are going to brew a dark beer with chocolate malt and roast barley in this water then you can expect the mash pH to be low so this means that you need to add some carbonates to buffer this. The article suggests that the way to do this is with some calcium carbonate.
What I like about this approach is that it's about keeping it simple. Anyway, you can read it for yourself and draw your own conclusions. My advice would be to keep the mineral additions low to begin with.
http://www.melbournebrewers.org/index.p ... Itemid=103
Good luck with it
What I like about this approach is that it's about keeping it simple. Anyway, you can read it for yourself and draw your own conclusions. My advice would be to keep the mineral additions low to begin with.
http://www.melbournebrewers.org/index.p ... Itemid=103
Good luck with it
Last edited by dick on 25 Oct 2010, 21:35, edited 5 times in total.
Post #10 made 13 years ago
I will definitely take a look at that one in depth, I have a very dark, big Russian Imperial Stout coming up and it looks like I need to do some water adjustments.
Do you know the units in the table on page 7? ppm?
Do you know the units in the table on page 7? ppm?
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Post #11 made 13 years ago
Parts per million
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[/center]
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[center]K.I.S.S., B.I.A.B.[/center]
[/center]
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Post #12 made 13 years ago
So, by that chart, for my pretty much black RIS, the suggestion is 80 ppm Ca, and 120 ppm HCO3. For my mash water at 7.65 gallons, that translates to 2.4 grams CA and 3.5 grams HCO3. So rounding up, 3 grams of chalk (CaCo3), and 4 grams of Baking Soda (NaHCO3) for my mash water. But that leaves my chloride to sulfate ratio still way down at malty, and sulfate and calcium are still below base levels. Would I add 3 grams of gypsum (CaSO4) and 4 grams of epsom salt (MgSO4) to bring all levels up to base levels and the chloride to sulfate ratio to very bitter?
From the spreadsheet, portions that are useable (ignore pH)
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
HCO3: 11
Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 7.65 / 2
Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 3
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 0 / 4
NaHCO3: 4 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 3 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0
Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 44 / 54
Mg: 1 / 11
Na: 44 / 36
Cl: 8 / 8
SO4: 4 / 93
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 2.05 / 0.09
I corresponded with Palmer about this recipe and this is what we came up with:
Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 6 / 0
CaCl2: 5 / 0
MgSO4: 4 / 0
NaHCO3: 10 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0
Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 105 / 81
Mg: 15 / 12
Na: 110 / 86
Cl: 99 / 78
SO4: 189 / 146
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.53 / 0.54
I just wanna get this one as spot on as I can without getting nutty, it will be aging for 5 years when I can proclaim myself cancer free. The Palmer numbers seem like a ton of salts going in, the Melbourne method seems low. My head hurts.
From the spreadsheet, portions that are useable (ignore pH)
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
HCO3: 11
Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 7.65 / 2
Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 3
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 0 / 4
NaHCO3: 4 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 3 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0
Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 44 / 54
Mg: 1 / 11
Na: 44 / 36
Cl: 8 / 8
SO4: 4 / 93
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 2.05 / 0.09
I corresponded with Palmer about this recipe and this is what we came up with:
Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 6 / 0
CaCl2: 5 / 0
MgSO4: 4 / 0
NaHCO3: 10 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0
Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 105 / 81
Mg: 15 / 12
Na: 110 / 86
Cl: 99 / 78
SO4: 189 / 146
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.53 / 0.54
I just wanna get this one as spot on as I can without getting nutty, it will be aging for 5 years when I can proclaim myself cancer free. The Palmer numbers seem like a ton of salts going in, the Melbourne method seems low. My head hurts.
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Post #13 made 13 years ago
By my calculations, you would use 6 grams of calcium carbonate in your 29 litres of water, to get about 80ppm of calcium and 120ppm of carbonate. Calcium carbonate is 40% calcium and 60% carbonate so the 6 grams of calcium carbonate yields 2.4g of calcium and 3.6g of carbonate. So no need to add bicarbonate as well as calcium carbonate.
As far as adding sulfate goes, the article suggests that's not really good for dark beers. If I was making a pale beer at 35IBU, yes I would add nothing but calcium sulfate to my water. For a dark beer, just calcium carbonate.
This can get confusing, which is why I think that as a beginner (I'm talking about myself here), I'm best off taking a simple approach, like what that article says to do. I wouldn't want to go adding many different salts until I really knew my way around all this.
I hope that in five years you are celebrating life with the best RIS you ever had!
As far as adding sulfate goes, the article suggests that's not really good for dark beers. If I was making a pale beer at 35IBU, yes I would add nothing but calcium sulfate to my water. For a dark beer, just calcium carbonate.
This can get confusing, which is why I think that as a beginner (I'm talking about myself here), I'm best off taking a simple approach, like what that article says to do. I wouldn't want to go adding many different salts until I really knew my way around all this.
I hope that in five years you are celebrating life with the best RIS you ever had!
Post #14 made 13 years ago
Ok, I've got it now I think. Do you have a list of the percentages of the elements in the other salts? It does appear to be much simpler than the spreadsheets. I'll just have to trust the backup to the numbers until I get a few brews under my belt using this method. I hope it is fine for the RIS.
THANKS!
THANKS!
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Post #15 made 13 years ago
And I think it is just awesome that the water in the article is SOOOOOO close to mine!
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Post #16 made 13 years ago
NM, see it in the text.Two If By Sea wrote:<snip>Do you have a list of the percentages of the elements in the other salts?
Last edited by Two If By Sea on 27 Oct 2010, 00:37, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #17 made 13 years ago
I've nailed down my recipe for tomorrow. It is a Russian Imperial Stout. I will be mashing 10.15 gallons (38.42 L). Let's see how I do.
Ca target = 80 mg/l Starting@2 mg/l Need to add 78 mg/l X 38.42 l = 2997 mg
CO3 target=120 mg/l Starting@11 m Need to add 109 mg/l X 38.42 l = 4188 mg
We'll start with the CO3 since that needs the most.
CaC03 is 40% Ca and 60% CO3
So 60% Y = 4188 Y = 6980 mg CaCO3 will give me 4188 mg CO3
40% X 6980 = 2792 mg of Ca
2997 mg of Ca needed - 2792 mg of Ca from 6980 mg of CaCO3 above = 205 mg additional Ca needed.
CaCL2 is 27.2% Ca
So 27.2% Y = 205 Y = 754 mg CaCL2 will give me 205 mg Ca
Let's check:
Ca totals = 2792 mg from CaCO3 + 205 mg from CaCL2 = 2997 mg / 38.42 l = 78 mg/l + 2 mg/l background water = 80 mg/l CHECK
CO3 totals = 4188 mg from CaCO3 / 38.42 l = 109 mg/l + 11 mg/l background water = 120 mg/l CHECK
Let's make the measurements more reasonable
6980 mg CaCO3 / 1.8 g/tsp = 3 7/8 tsp
754 mg CaCL2 / 3.4 g/tsp = 1/4 tsp
Sounds great. But does the paper mean that Chloride to Sulfate ratio is not important? I am brewing a Dark but Hoppy beer. The IBU target is 113 with a BU/GU of 1.1 @ OG 1.102. The Chloride/Sulfate ratio is 4.7 which is well above the 2 suggested for very malty. I like that the water in the paper is very similar to mine. I guess I have to trust that the writer knows what he is doing and has backed it up from experience. It just goes against what Palmer, Jamil et al have been preaching. I'm confused.
Ca target = 80 mg/l Starting@2 mg/l Need to add 78 mg/l X 38.42 l = 2997 mg
CO3 target=120 mg/l Starting@11 m Need to add 109 mg/l X 38.42 l = 4188 mg
We'll start with the CO3 since that needs the most.
CaC03 is 40% Ca and 60% CO3
So 60% Y = 4188 Y = 6980 mg CaCO3 will give me 4188 mg CO3
40% X 6980 = 2792 mg of Ca
2997 mg of Ca needed - 2792 mg of Ca from 6980 mg of CaCO3 above = 205 mg additional Ca needed.
CaCL2 is 27.2% Ca
So 27.2% Y = 205 Y = 754 mg CaCL2 will give me 205 mg Ca
Let's check:
Ca totals = 2792 mg from CaCO3 + 205 mg from CaCL2 = 2997 mg / 38.42 l = 78 mg/l + 2 mg/l background water = 80 mg/l CHECK
CO3 totals = 4188 mg from CaCO3 / 38.42 l = 109 mg/l + 11 mg/l background water = 120 mg/l CHECK
Let's make the measurements more reasonable
6980 mg CaCO3 / 1.8 g/tsp = 3 7/8 tsp
754 mg CaCL2 / 3.4 g/tsp = 1/4 tsp
Sounds great. But does the paper mean that Chloride to Sulfate ratio is not important? I am brewing a Dark but Hoppy beer. The IBU target is 113 with a BU/GU of 1.1 @ OG 1.102. The Chloride/Sulfate ratio is 4.7 which is well above the 2 suggested for very malty. I like that the water in the paper is very similar to mine. I guess I have to trust that the writer knows what he is doing and has backed it up from experience. It just goes against what Palmer, Jamil et al have been preaching. I'm confused.
Last edited by Two If By Sea on 06 Nov 2010, 08:32, edited 6 times in total.
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Post #19 made 13 years ago
Nah, the math is easy. It is the smoke and mirrors and conflicting information behind it all that is confusing.
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Post #20 made 13 years ago
I dissolved it in the mash right after the grains were stirred in. I've read that the pH is low enough to dissolve it, and just under 4 tsp in just over 10 gallons helped too I bet. If I went by the popular spreadsheets and nomographs, I would have been trying to dissolve in 3-4 times that plus a whole load of other salts. If I get the results from this method, I'm sticking with it.
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Post #21 made 13 years ago
Great brewday Saturday.
I got 6 gallons of 1.104 OG Russian Imperial Stout. I was going to do my normal 48 hour sour mash partigyle for a bonus beer but it looked like the mash would still produce a pretty dark beer. Good call. I decocted the mash (first time!) 4 times to raise the bag, 1 gallon of the RIS wort, and 3 gallons of water to mash temps. Then I pitched in 4# of 2 row and a few ounces of torrified wheat. Got a 1.069 wort hopped to ~35 IBU. CHOCOLATE! That's what the wort tasted like. I'm thinking of making it a Mexican Chocolate Porter. Fantastic blow offs still today with both beers.
I got 6 gallons of 1.104 OG Russian Imperial Stout. I was going to do my normal 48 hour sour mash partigyle for a bonus beer but it looked like the mash would still produce a pretty dark beer. Good call. I decocted the mash (first time!) 4 times to raise the bag, 1 gallon of the RIS wort, and 3 gallons of water to mash temps. Then I pitched in 4# of 2 row and a few ounces of torrified wheat. Got a 1.069 wort hopped to ~35 IBU. CHOCOLATE! That's what the wort tasted like. I'm thinking of making it a Mexican Chocolate Porter. Fantastic blow offs still today with both beers.
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Post #22 made 13 years ago
Any ideas on acid rest or % of acid malt for doing a witbier?
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Post #23 made 13 years ago
Bueller?
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Post #25 made 13 years ago
no eye deerdick wrote:What do you call a blind deer?
I haven't done an acid rest or used acidulated malt so I can't help you on this one.
However, if I was trying to lower the pH of the mash for a witbier the first thing I would look to is calcium chloride.
Cheers
Dick
Last edited by dick on 30 Dec 2010, 05:42, edited 5 times in total.
