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Why is colour not associated with flavour?

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
The BIAB brewers working on the BIABacus project have found one of the hardest things in development is working out the logic of existing programs. A myriad of faults have been found. For example, even the most basic of formulas, gravity estimates, is incorrect in some of the most respected software.

Professional brewers I've developed relations with over the years confirm that existing software is, let's just say for now, "unreliable."

Much of the commercial software has what I see as gimmicks. To be quite honest I am appalled at the software out there.

For example, I cannot for the life of me see any use of a colour adjustment tool. There are so many obvious problems with such a tool, I don't even know where to begin!

The worst bit is that any time you adjust colour, you adjust grain flavour. Does any program even warn the new all-grainer of this? No, they expect them to know everything.

The experienced all-grainer would know to never use such a tool. Apart from considering the flavour, they would also consider whether the reduction of a grain would reduce a red/brown or black colour.

My biggest fear is that when the BIABacus comes out, the really convenient and useful things that have taken thousands of development hours will be over-looked through the pre-conditioning of brewers to look for gimicks. In other words, "The BIABacus doesn't have a colour adjustment tool."

Ergo, it is no good.
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Post #2 made 12 years ago
by joshua
Good Day PP, I found, you can use a very dark grain 300-400 Lovibond, At 10-12% of the grain bill, with the rest being Maris Otter, And end up with a dark brown Ale, with a strong roast, and all malt flavor.

You can use 50% "Caramel 40" and 50% Maris otter, and end with about the same color, But a totally different flavor.

Flavor and Color are very different things, very difficult to project, without A LOT of experience.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #3 made 12 years ago
by stux
Don't worry so much
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #4 made 12 years ago
by hashie
One of the first things I remember reading when I first started thinking about all grain brewing was "When adjusting the gravity of a recipe, only adjust the base malts, not the cara malts."

This I assume is to ensure you have a beer that tastes the same, yet has a higher/lower ABV. And yet, doing this will affect the colour. Beersmith, when adjusting a recipe's OG, will scale all malts. Essentially maintaining the right colour.

I'm not sure if the above is relevant to the OP, but I brew for flavour, not for colour.
Last edited by hashie on 04 Apr 2012, 05:46, edited 3 times in total.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #5 made 12 years ago
by rockbotton
I think the reason all the software shows color is from the old adage about food. That is that "you eat with your eyes first". Being in the food industry we have to be almost as concerned with presentation as we are with flavor. If it does not look good customers will never get to the taste part. That is why I believe that all the software renders color for recipes.
Fermenting:

Bottle Conditioning

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Post #6 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
What a rambly first post :roll: :). Thanks for wading through it.

The BIABAcus3 will have colour calcs just no 'auto-colour adjustment.' I'm just hoping that no new brewers will think this is a negative. I suppose if the reasons for why it has been deliberately left out are made clear, all should be okay and we need not 'worry so much.' (Good on you stux ;))

:peace:
PP
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Post #7 made 12 years ago
by Beachbum
I've found a brilliant colour adjustment called Briess Ultra Black, quite cheap. It's made from all malt and is sort of an instant coffee version of Weyermann Sinnamar. It's virtually flavourless apart from a very very slight nuttiness at high concentrations.

It's great for, example, bumping up the colour of a Vienna Lager to meet BJCP guidelines as modern Vienna Malt doesn't quite get you there, also to put a bit of gold into a lager that's turned out too "straw", etc etc etc.

No affiliation but I got mine from Marks Home Brew in Newcastle.

Post #8 made 12 years ago
by stux
Beachbum wrote:I've found a brilliant colour adjustment called Briess Ultra Black, quite cheap. It's made from all malt and is sort of an instant coffee version of Weyermann Sinnamar. It's virtually flavourless apart from a very very slight nuttiness at high concentrations.

It's great for, example, bumping up the colour of a Vienna Lager to meet BJCP guidelines as modern Vienna Malt doesn't quite get you there, also to put a bit of gold into a lager that's turned out too "straw", etc etc etc.

No affiliation but I got mine from Marks Home Brew in Newcastle.
Wish he had a better/more complete webstore...
Last edited by stux on 18 Apr 2012, 13:51, edited 3 times in total.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #10 made 12 years ago
by stux
He could do a lot worse than just having all the unique/hard to get items that he stocks (that I hear about) on his website. Although I have noticed that there are a few more interesting items now than there used to be :)
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #11 made 12 years ago
by Beachbum
He's got all the gear. When I visited him last year, his malt prices are as good as Craftbrewer in Brisbane - locally - and he stocks heaps of stuff in big glass door fridges. If Craftbrewer drops the ball on home brewing and concentrates more on supplying Bacchus beer to craft bars that are springing up around Brisbane since they adopted Melbourne laneway cafe/bar type legislation, I reckon Mark could step in and fill a lot of the void. He'd need bigger premises and some more staff of course.

If you've never met him he's a very forthright opinionated friendly big fat huggy bear of a man :peace: and he has good business nous but he has such enthusiasm about everything that he'll drop his website work and head off to look at something interesting, then something else then something else. He really needs a good defacto manager like Ross has Anthony at Craftbrewer and he'd take off like a rocket.

Anyway this is getting waaaay off topic for BIABrewer :lol:

Post #12 made 12 years ago
by stux
He's on my "must see" list in Newcastle ;)
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #14 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Mark is excellent and has looked after me from day one of my brewing. We still chat a few times a year even though I'm now on the west coast. You'll see a few posts on here where I have quoted him directly as he is certainly one of my "go to" guys when I want to discuss a grey area.

Wow! We have got off-topic. I think I'll give him a ring and ask him exactly what he thinks of having colour scalers. (I have no problem with colour representations but I do have a problem with colour scalers).

:peace:
PP
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