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Hitting the high numbers

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by Aces high
I knocked up a double batch of this black IPA today. My mate likes the WA bootleg brewery black IPA so i thought we'd make a copy for him. This is based on a 43L batch and had 14.5kg of grain to get to the 1.073 final figure, so its a big brew. I ended up with 1.060 after the boil, even though my volumes were correct right through. So my question is, is BIAB able to hit the big numbers like 1.073, or do you lose efficiency when trying this type of brew? I did a quick dunk sparge , but is there something else that I should have done?

I know I probably should have done a 90 minute mash, but we were both a bit short on time, so I kept it at 60mins. I also used pilsner instead of ale malt as I have a 25kg bag in the brewshed (this shouldn't make any difference because I added it in the recipe). I still dont understand exactly how to work out efficiencies, but using brewmate and the calculator 2.0 together I get a pretty good idea of exactly how the brewday should go and everything worked out fine except my OG being too low. I hit strike temp right on 66, and lost less than a degree over the 60 minutes.

Black Betty (American IPA)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.073 (°P): 17.7
Final Gravity (FG): 1.018 (°P): 4.6
Alcohol (ABV): 7.17 %
Colour (SRM): 27.3 (EBC): 53.7
Bitterness (IBU): 68.5 (Average)

82.61% Pilsner (12.5kg)
5.8% Caraamber (850g)
5.8% Chocolate (850g)
5.8% Munich I (850g)

1 g/L Chinook (11.4% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
1 g/L Simcoe (13.1% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
1 g/L Amarillo (8.6% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil)
0.6 g/L Amarillo (8.6% Alpha) @ 1 Minutes (Boil)

Single step Infusion at 66°C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 18°C with us-05


Recipe Generated with BrewMate
Last edited by Aces high on 04 Dec 2011, 18:14, edited 4 times in total.

Post #2 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there Aces,

That is a big beer and that's the main reason for your low OG. You need to lower the efficiency for such a big brew (i.e. increase your grain bill).

Stux has been working on this problem for the last few months and thanks to his hard work, the BIABacus will automatically adjust the efficiency, the water you need and the grain bill depending on the original gravity :thumbs:.

Hope you had a fun day ;).
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Post #3 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
I don't understand it Ace. I brewed a double nut brown on 11/20/11 with 18 pound (8.2kg) grain bill and got a 71.5% efficiency and came in at a 1.077 OG. I accidentally had a thicker mash because I filled my keggle to my standard volume of 7.5 gal (28.5l) without thinking, with a mash thickness of 1.67 qt/lb. If I'd do it again I would calculate more volume for a 90 min boil, instead of a 60, to see if my efficiency would go even higher.

I also mashed out at 170 degrees F, measured with a 12" liquid lab thermometer inside the bag. I also improved my squeezing method. I now squeeze the bag in-place hanging over the keggle. I use 2 kitchen pot lids and work them from the top down. The bag is pretty dry when finished, I get a .055 gal/lb grain absorption rate.

I also can hit my volumes. I use a sight glass and know to the 1/16 of a inch (8 ounces) what I have.

Let use know how Ms. Black Betty turns out, I might give it a go. I'm not afraid of the dark. :yum:

I have a series of photos showing this. Check out my 11/20/11 and 11/21/11 pics. Prosts, Richard
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Post #4 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there MS :peace: ,

You might have to give us a bit more info so we can work out your figures above. For example...

1. What was your end of boil volume (or your volume into fermentor plus kettle losses)

2. When you say 'efficiency' do you mean 'efficiency into kettle' or 'efficiency into fermentor'.

Either of the above (preferably both) will make it easy for us to 'compare' notes.

:salute:
PP
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Post #6 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Good on you MS :peace:,

Okay, the 71.7% was your EIK (efficiency into kettle sometimes known as mash efficiency). On a normal gravity BIAB (around 1.050 OG), you would expect about 82% EIK on average so the 71.7% is about 10% lower. And, it should be...

The higher gravity means more grain which means more sugar has to be washed out but you are still limited to doing this with the same amount of 'free' water you would use on a normal gravity brew.

So, the higher gravity the brew, the less efficiency into kettle (and therefore less efficiency into fermentor and packaging.)

Your numbers match up nicely with the work stux has been doing on this though figures from a single brew should never be relied on. The more brews you do (of the same gravity) the more you can rely on your three efficiency figures.

It's very confusing that three types of efficiency figures exist. You really need to say, 'efficiency into kettle', 'efficiecny into fermentor' or 'efficiency into packaging'. The first one is the best to use when giving someone else a recipe - it is totally unambiguous. The other two are meaningless unless you give that person your kettle and fermentor trub losses as well.

No software exists at present that automatically estimates your efficiencies depending on the gravity of your recipe. Stux's work on this will enable the new calculator (the BIABacus) to have this feature. It's pretty cool :clap:.

Hope the above makes things a little clearer,
PP

P.S. I've just written a little more on this here.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Dec 2011, 16:51, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #7 made 12 years ago
by natept
I've had problems with higher gravity BIAB as well. I initially had problems trying to do a 10 gallon batch in a 15 gallon kettle where I'd top up the kettle after mashing - I have since gotten a 20 gallon kettle for when I want to brew 10 gallons at once (using full volume of water and all grain at once). My efficiency (68% brewhouse, around 80% mash) is the same (obviously I have some small variance between batches) when doing 5 or 10 gallon batches.

Last weekend I did a partigyle brew session to get an ESB and a Special Bitter. I calculated for 2 5 gallon batches at the gravities I wanted and divided by 2 to figure the gravity for both beers (1.060 and 1.048 - 60+48=108, 108/2=54 - used my 10 gallon profile in Beersmith at 1.054.

I used the entire grist (22 lbs) in my 15 gallon kettle knowing my efficiency wouldn't be great (wanted some decent extraction in kettle 2). I then mashed out and moved the bag into a 2nd 15 gallon kettle at mash out temp and let it sit for about 15 minutes. I ended up with 7.7 gallons at 1.063 and 7.8 gallons at 1.025 (roughly 70% of gravity in 1st runnings, 30% in 2nd). I swapped 2.8 gallons and ended up with PBGs of 1.051 and 1.037 - perfect. ESB OG was 1.060 and SB at 1.045 (I ended up with 1/4 gallon extra in kettle 2 or I would've been closer to my goal of 1.048). My overall brewhouse efficiency ended up at 68% when calculating both batches, if I had only calculated the first runnings and where I would have ended up post-boil (1.074ish), I would have been around 46% brewhouse efficiency.

Using the same kettle and water volume as my first runnings for the ESB, I was able to get to 1.063 with 17 lbs of grain on a previous brew. So basically the 5lbs more grain in this recent batch did nothing to increase extraction.

The conclusion I've come to is that in order to get good efficiency, (68% is good for my process, I leave a gallon of wort/trub behind in the kettle or I'd be higher) there needs to be plenty of room in the kettle for your grist and water. The more compact your mash is, the worse your efficiency will be (this is just in my experience, I'm sure there's a sweet spot and typically having the entire volume of water in the kettle at the start seems to be the key for me).

I have been wanting to brew an English Barleywine for some time now, but haven't quite figured out how to do this without resorting to adding a bunch of DME. After trying the partigyle last weekend, I will do a barleywine and ordinary bitter in one session just because it doesn't add much grain or time (and it was fun!).

What I'm thinking about doing is mashing in my 20 gallon kettle with about 3/4 of the volume of water for both beers and running my PBV into one kettle and the rest into the 2nd kettle with the last 1/4 of water in it. I'll then move the grain bag into that kettle as well and see if I can get anything else out. I'm thinking if I account for about 60% efficiency and have a thinner mash (closer to a normal grist:water ratio), I might be able to get a 1.080 or higher wort (preboil). If I do this, I'll post my results - probably wont be for a couple of months though.

I hope this is helpful - sorry for the novel!

Post #8 made 12 years ago
by stux
Yup, pretty much. As your mash thickness increases the mash efficiency goes down. It's due to grain absorption becoming more significant.

You can counteract it with a dunk sparge

You can use my CE calc to work out your process and it will accurately predict your results. It's been used for 1.100OG barley wines before.
http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=1066

I would make the BIAB in your 20G pot, and dunk sparge in your 10G. Enter your gravity a d desired fermenter volume, the. Adjust the sparge value to minimize grain used while making sure the total sparge pot volume will fit in your 10G pot
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5/7/12

Post #9 made 12 years ago
by natept
stux wrote:Yup, pretty much. As your mash thickness increases the mash efficiency goes down. It's due to grain absorption becoming more significant.

You can counteract it with a dunk sparge

You can use my CE calc to work out your process and it will accurately predict your results. It's been used for 1.100OG barley wines before.
viewtopic.php?f=74&t=1066

I would make the BIAB in your 20G pot, and dunk sparge in your 10G. Enter your gravity a d desired fermenter volume, the. Adjust the sparge value to minimize grain used while making sure the total sparge pot volume will fit in your 10G pot
I've tried using your calculator a couple of times and am not having any luck figuring out how I'd use it when trying to make a barleywine. Let's say I'm using 9 gallons of water and 20 lbs of grain using the maxi method. What you're saying is I could mash 4.5 gallons for 90 minutes at my sach rest temp (say 149F), I would then move the bag (after draining a bit) to my second "Sparge" pot filled with the other 4.5 gallons of water around 170F. After letting it sit in there for around 10 minutes, raise the bag and drain/squeeze, then combine the wort from both kettles and I could hit 1.080ish preboil?

Am I understanding the general strategy correctly?
Last edited by natept on 12 Apr 2012, 23:53, edited 4 times in total.
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