Dave,
I only do BIAB so I cannot make the comparison.

Pleas check https://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.ph ... 0&start=25 for use of terms so that others who might help you can tell what you mean by “no sparge” method.

Cooling rates after Flame Out (FO) play a role. Crash cooling, too. When did you do it, relative to Dry Hopping?

Hi Dave [mention]Pudendum[/mention] ,

Hops are a PITA! I remember Amarillo used to be my favourite hop and then one year I bought it and I got nothing out of it . [mention]ShorePoints[/mention] mentioned terminology. "No-sparge," is a term incorrectly used in books, magazines and forums. The correct meaning of no-sparge is to use a lot more grain than you would normally and then dilute it before the boil - more info here. Unfortunatley when BIAB came along, the term was mis-used. The original meaning and purpose of BIAB is to simply add all the water to your grain, in one hit, in a single vessel.

I don't think the method you use to make your "sweet liquor" (the stuff that goes into your kettle) will be the problem. There would be many things to discount before reaching that point and some of those are beyond your control. I mentioned Amarillo above. That had at least one bad year. Some varieties also exude amazing characteristics but after five years or so, the hop vine changes in character and this exciting new hop variety becomes not so exciting.

We then have the problem of where you get your hops from and how they were treated before you get them. Once you receive them, how you store them affects things.

You, personally, may also change. For example, if I brewed the All American Amarillo Pale Ale recipe tomorrow, it may not strike me as a fantastic beer. I brewed that for several years and loved it. After the disappointing harvest or two of Amarillo I stopped using it but, I have had some beers made with it in the last year that were fantastic so maybe I should try again? But, even if we could magically transport the grain and hops and water I used back then to now, I don't know if I would still find the beer as amazing as I did back then?

I've definitely written about this before, either here or in an email. I must say that I am finding myself having to use a lot more hops and much later now than I did years ago. (I think I started BIAB in 2006). So, is it me that is changing or the hops? The only thing I haven't changed is the way I make sweet liquor which is BIAB.

A great question Dave and a very hard one to answer
PP

The only info I have seen on this was a discussion elsewhere with some people talking about “hop fade”. Most seemed to find that cube cooling resulted in hops aroma fading quicker than they would with coil or plate chilling. I don’t know why, or if there was a conclusion to the discussion, but it appeared that many had found a common experience.

Sounds like the discussion is really about the chilling method you use. That's why, when trying to copy a recipe, it's great if you can get details of the chilling method. (Have a read of this.) Often you can't and most recipe software doesn't have a place where you can state the method. The BIABAcus has a place for that in Section G but with some of today's hop schedules, sometimes you really need to add some explanatory notes in Section I as well.

There's a lot we don't know about hops. There's probably some hop varieties / recipes where you may notice no difference between chilling slowly in a cube versus fast chilling while other varieties / recipes, it could be pronounced. It's hard to generalise on this sort of stuff. Alex Tronscoso, who used to be head brewer at Little Creatures, gave a few of us the most interesting talk on hops I've ever heard. He said that every hop is an, "individual," whose effects cannot be described or determined by any formula. As head brewer, he was faced with the challenge of producing consistent beer but with the struggle of not all hops being available from one month or year to the next. He had the skill though of knowing what each hop produced depending on how you treated it.

For example, let's say the standard recipe required an addition of hop x 10 mins before the boil end. He knew that if hop x was not available, he could use hop y as a fresh wort hop or perhaps hop z in the whirlpool to get the same effect.

So, it's a difficult area to generalise on especially when you're not brewing the same beer day in, day out

Here's a good read, especially if you appreciate the laboratory equipment used to collect the data.
https://cryopopblend.com/wp-content/upl ... hUZw7ztQYQ
Gee, I wish that I had started brewing while I was still working and had access to those analytical tools (might have gotten myself into trouble if I did).

The advice given in this thread by PistolPatch (I miss him) is still sound. I am also glad that what I said 3 years ago is borne out by the link above. Time + temperature have to be considered as a pair when hopping. First Wort Hopping (FWH) is slightly different from the rest as extractions occur on the rise and the mix of compounds that go through the boil and the rest of the process are unique to FWH.

Recipes posted from years ago often had hop additions during the latter part of the boil. I see newer recipes with little of that and lots more hopstand additions (post FlameOut). As Pat might have said, unless you know the temperature and time involved, the recipe is not detailed enough. During my brewing process I record the time of day for each addition of hops and an inkbird records the time and temperature including that point and later. It doesn't mean that I could exactly duplicate it as my cooling rate is impacted by ambient T, but at least it is recorded.. Getting even more picky - rates of addition could play a role, but that would require even more lab equipment. As always, it depends on the batch of hops involved, and the properties of hops change over time and from year to year. I give up on trying to make the exact same beer again. Just make beer.

@@hoptician that's interesting... Do you know of any testing anyone has done on adding gelatin and its impact on hop aroma? Like Brulosophy, etc. I had not heard of any issue, but who knows...

One of the things I tested, last IPA batch, was adding dry hops after cold crash. A local pro brewer recommended it, said it reduced grassy / vegetal aromas you often get with dry hopping. Something went awry on my brew though and the beer is quite a bit stronger on hop bitterness than I was expecting. So "user error", and I will have to redo my test and rework the recipe.

I've been slightly increasing the amount of aroma hops when brewing beers such as my German Pilsner. And more important - doing a Hop Stand, but adding the Flame Out / 0 minute charge only after chilling the wort down to about 180-deg Fahrenheit / 82 deg Celcius and do a 20-minute Hop Stand with stiring the wort (or "whirlpool", which is about the same thing but you are using a pump). If you don't lower temperature of your wort some you will lose much of your aroma, and research I've read recently says the majic number is 180 deg F. Maybe this is how everyone else does their 0-min hop additions, I don't know, but I only started doing it this way 3 or 4 years ago, and its been a big help!

Just re-reading the title to this old thread, and I do not believe BIAB has anything to do with hop aroma. Rather it is the wort temperature when the aroma hops are added that most impacts hop aroma.

Yes, I have experienced low hop aromas, too. There's lots to read about additions at Flame Out, whirlpool additions, dry hopping during fermentation and near the end of active fermentation, time & temperature for dry hopping related to cold crashing. Here's one article http://scottjanish.com/examination-of-s ... D6qlR85Lc0
The most recent credible sources I have seen now talk about extraction from hops is complete by 48 hours - no more 3-5 days of dry hopping. Then there is the temperature to consider. Dry hopping can begin with cold crashing. I have not yet tried these, but I will.

And here is another Scott Janish article about "A Case for Short and Cool Dry Hopping" that is a little bit more recent. Those interested in hopping will find it interesting.

http://scottjanish.com/a-case-for-short ... y-hopping/

@ShorePoints, @Scott Very interesting reads.. Thanks gents . Salute to the both of you. 1st off, sorry I've been away. Had to work my rear off to be able to afford being out of work for 6 monthe, tore up my shoulder and had to have surgery. 2nd , after reading the thread I figured out why my Gulf Coast IPA has been lacking..... Aroma hops were added AFTER wort chiller was hooked up and wort was hand whirlpooled in original recipe.. Original recipe [ the best one] was accidently thrown away..Lovely wife just saw scribbling and threw way...I usually do not dry hop , but, my IPA's are using Cascade , mosaic & Simcoe so a short dry hop at cooler temps would be a cool experiment for me. I'll be hopping on more these next 6 months till I get back to work .. CHEERS!

@hoptician , that's interesting... So the one you cold crashed and dry hopped there was super intense and hard to drink...? At least initially?

I had that happen with my one that I did a dry hop early in the fermentation, but then cold crashed and dry hopped for a couple days. Doesn't take too long, can't remember how long. Initially it was SO hoppy, very hard to drink!!! I did not like it at first, and when the keg first went on was blending it with a low hop beer just to get it down...

It's became easier over time. Right now after being kegged for over 2 months it drinks very nicely. Wish I had more of it. Except not as fruity as I like, but that is probably more because of hop selection of this batch. So this is your experience as well...

@jhough - very nice to hear from you! Too bad to hear about the shoulder... Hope it recovers well for you. I don't get paid if I don't work as well...