Display posts from previous
Sort by

How to account for maple sap in BIABacus?

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by cazadoro
I would like to brew using all maple sap (SG 1.020) in my beer. How do you correct a recipe in BIABacus to account for that? Also should I be building the sap with any minerals?

Backstory: I recently moved to Ohio and have tried brewing two beers since the move. Both had a weird additional taste that I can't seem to get rid of. After talking with another couple of brewers up in this area there seems to be something in the water that throws the balance off. It is maple sugaring season here so I have gathered enough sap to brew my entire brew with it. I hope that some of the maple flavor comes over, but my primary goal is just not using the tap water and avoiding that unwanted flavor.

Thanks
Caz
    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From United States of America

Post #2 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Caz,

I think I am reading this correctly... you use absolutely no water in the brew, just sap? If so, then forget any water adjustments. On future brews, when using water, you'll need to find out from local brewers how they fix the problem if it is significantly annoying to your plate. An RO filter and salt additions may be the only way you can go. You'll need to investigate that.

As for how to enter the maple sap in the BIABacus, that is excellent that you have the SG of 1.020. That is all we need to know. As to knowing how to input it, this is a bit tricky as your sap acts simultaneously as liquor and extract. So, it involves a game of twenty questions and to answer it, we'll need to know your vessel dimensions so as we can estimate your evaporation rate and we'll need to see the original recipe.

Perhaps the best way of knowing that is for you to type as much info as you can into a BIABacus PR 1.3K version and post the file here.

Then we'll get your sorted ;),
PP
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia

Post #3 made 12 years ago
by cazadoro
Attached is my unaltered recipe. Thanks for looking into this PP!

Caz
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From United States of America

Post #4 made 12 years ago
by cazadoro
Also, I am not sure which version that one is. I never can seem to find the most current version when I come to look for it. Is there a "Downloads" section or somewhere that would make it obvious you are getting the correct "latest" version?
    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From United States of America

Post #5 made 12 years ago
by Rick
there is a link in your BIABacus file. It says "click here for latest version", or something like that. I'm paraphrasing since I am on my phone right now. scroll down a bit after clicking that link, and it'll direct you to another thread which contains v1.3K.

I just did this the other day, so i'm certain it should work for you.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From United States of America

Post #6 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
cazadoro wrote:Thanks for looking into this!
No problem Caz, it's a really interesting question and has never come up before.

Firstly, your BIABacus File

In Section C, no need to type 1.058 twice. It is only needed on the left as you do not intend to change the 1.058. I've removed the right hand one.

In Section C, never type in the actual "%" sign under 'Grams/Ratios' as it seems to be impossible to remove once typed in. Not sure why the percent is there as it looks like you really just wanted to type in 2268 / 2268 / 454 and 226. Make sure you use a fresh BIABacus file on your next brew so as you can get rid of that. What you have done though, does not affect anything so all is fine for now.

In Section D, you have 19 L on the first line. FOr Northern Brewer recipes (which have several recipe integrity problems) our best guess of the number to put there is 20.83 L (5.5 gal). I have changed that.

In Section E, you need to delete the first line and move all the other steps up 1. I'll do that for you. In other words, your first step is the top line of Section E. (That section is a bit ambiguous. We'll re-think that.) You'll now get the right strike temperature though.

In Section I, I'm not sure about the two months in secondary. I'd personally prefer to see you conditioning that in the package (bottle or keg). I could be wrong on that but I am very uncomfortable with beers sitting for that long in vessels that have no positive pressure.

In Section H, the diacetyl rest is out of control. It shouldn't be at 24 C. I'm pretty lazy with my lagers but generally get silver medals for them. Here's what I would do. Pitch at 7 or 8 C even if it takes yu a day to get your wort down to that temp. Let it rise to 9C. Keep it at 9C for a week. Let it rise 1 C a day to 15C in the second week and then bring it down by 2 C per day in the third week ending up at 1C on the eight day. (I'm actually lazier than that but that is giving you everything. For example, when you pitch low, you actually don't need a diacetyl rest but we've put one in anyway. It will speed conditioning.) On future brews, I am thinking of trying a secondary when I get to say 13 C as there's a small flavour I don't like and I think it is coming from too long a contact with the dead yeast. I might be wrong though.

Sorry, the above is what I do as I keg and have temperature control. I'm not that clued up on bottling. I am unsure whether it is a good idea to crash-chill before bottling or not??? Maybe start a new thread on that? Maybe if you use a secondary, there is no need to crash-chill?

...

Didn't realise I was going to write so much here Caz. What I might do is post this now and then in the next post, concentrate on how to deal with the sap. Bit scared of losing all the above. Nothing worse that writing a heap and then it all disappears with the hit of a wrong button :o.

Back shortly - I hope!
Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Mar 2014, 18:36, edited 1 time in total.
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia

Post #7 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Just before we do the sap, I hope you know what you are doing Caz as I have never heard of doing this before :). The big unknown for me is, "What flavour will the maple sap add to the brew?" I suspect it will be quite distinctive. I won't go into that here obviously. All I will do below, is reduce the grain bill evenly to account for the sugar added by the sappy water.

I also find it hard to visualise maple sap as being watery. Be good to get more info or some pics on what it looks like and whether you scored the 1.020 reading from ;).

Secondly, the Sap.

There might be a few ways to deal with this in the BIABacus but I am going to use the way that I find easiest. You may not follow the below Caz but I'll write here what I am doing anyway.

The first line of Section K tells me I am using 9.01 Gallons of 'sappy Water'. The sappy water has a specific gravity of 1.020 and I am assuming that all that SG is caused by sugar. (This may not be true though). This means that the 'sappy water' is contributing 9.01*20=180.2 gravity points

In Section K, we see that after the boil, once things are chilled, we are estimated to have 6.16 gallons. 180.2/6.16=29.25. This means that 29.25 points of your desired 58 (1.058 original gravity) are being contributed just from the sappy water. So we need to go back to Section C and change the 1.058 to 1.058-1.029/25=1.028/75 or 1.029.

When we do this, a flow on effect occurs that you won't see in other programs although it should. Firstly the grain bill obviously drops as the sappy water is supplying a hell of a lot of sugar. Secondly, the kettle Efficiency jumps from 82.2 to 91.6% as the grain required is being washed in more sappy water. Total Water Needed drops from 9.01 gallons to 8.5 gallons as the less grains mean less water is 'sponged' from the kettle.

Let's stop now and have a think...

There's lots of pedantic number stuff that I could talk about here. They are not worth worrying about though. There is one technical thing I'd like to mention briefly. How much does using 1.020 sappy water as your liquor lower the kettle efficiency compared to washing the grain in pure water? Who knows?

The above are interesting intellectual exercises that we can only guess at until real life experiments are done. What really worries me though is...

Recipe Integrity

I think using maple sap could be a really good or a really bad idea.

It could be a good idea if you want to try this as an experimental/specialty beer. It may win first prize. I don't know.

It could be a very bad idea if your intention is to copy that Northern brewer recipe. The sap contributes almost half the 'sugar bill'. Does the sap ferment to a neutral taste? Or, does it contribute some over-powering flavour? I have no idea.

So Caz, great question but I'm unsure that I have any valuable answers.

:peace:
PP
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Mar 2014, 19:25, edited 1 time in total.
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia

Post #8 made 12 years ago
by cazadoro
Wow thanks for the informative post! I am not sure how crash chilling would work with bottling. I would love to switch to kegging, but the the $ isn't there yet. I have made this recipe twice according to the way it was posted in the beginning and it has always tasted great, but your lagering schedule looks much faster so I think I'll give it a try with this batch.

The SG of 1.020 is what I measured from the gathered sap, but that was only a portion of what I used. I just went and measured from several of my other containers and got readings closer to 1.008-1.014. The sugar content is apparently affected by the weather among several other factors. It really does look just like water, and has a slight sweetness with just a hint of earthy/woody flavor. I imagine that flavor might concentrate with a full batch cooked down, but time will tell.

I should have asked these questions a week ago so I would have had time to wait for responses, but I was busy and brew when I get the chance. I actually brewed with the other recipe just using sap instead of water and made no adjustments to the grain bill. The SG I measured after Mash out at the start of the boil was 1.050 and my SG before pitching was 1.066. These numbers suggest the SG of the entire sap batch was probably lower, something along the lines of 1.008-1.0010. I should have taken a reading after gathering all the sap for the batch and before adding the grains.

My goal for this beer is not fixed to staying within any set of style guidelines for competition, though I might enter it if the taste meets my expectations :)

Thanks for the help with setting these numbers up. I think I will follow those guidelines and alter the numbers of another recipe I would like to brew. This time it will have to be an ale because I don't have enough room in the fridge for two lagers.

Caz
    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From United States of America

Post #9 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
I'm actually pleased to hear you have already brewed this Caz. And with the posts above. Am really looking forward to hearing you tell us how this beer comes out.

When you take a gravity reading, always try and get a volume reading as well as both measurements are really needed to work out the 'weight' of sugar in the batch. For example, if we knew the volume of the ambient wort (that's the volume of the boiled wort once it is chilled) we could couple that with the 1.066 measurement and make a few preliminary guesses on how to handle the next batch.

Another thing I could have and should have done in the file I attached is as follows...

Remember previously I wrote, "In Section C, no need to type 1.058 twice. It is only needed on the left as you do not intend to change the 1.058." What I should have done in the attached file is left the 1.058 on the left and then typed 1.029 on the right. In Section I, I could then have written, OG in Section C reduced to 1.029 to account for the sap water I used." This would have had less ambiguity.

Anyway, if you need further help on the sappy water, let us know. I am excited to hear how these turn out.

:luck:
PP
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia

Post #10 made 12 years ago
by cazadoro
I don't have an accurate measurement of the cooled wort, but it is approximately 5.5 Gal. I wondered about the section C thing, but forgot to ask in my last post. Makes sense that way though.

Assuming it ferments all the way out, will the original recipe ending up at 1.066 end up drying the beer out? For other beers should I adjust the amount of adjunct grain? or raise the mash temp? If so, how much would you suggest for a starting point?
    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From United States of America

Post #11 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Using maple sap is really flying in totally unknown territory Caz. If not for everyone then it is definitely so for me. This site is trying to create systems for collecting accurate information on pure all-grain brews as no one else has done this before. They are doing very well but your questions above, I don't think can be answered yet. I think you just have to brew and taste because as no one else I know of has tried what you are doing let alone recorded their results.

I'll ask a mod to move this to Advanced Brewing because I think we'll really be relying on you to record and supply numbers here, along with tasting notes before we can even begin to give you answers here.

I don't think the 1.066 thing will cause any problems at all though in drying the beer out. I have never heard of that before. Have you got a link to where you heard that?

In addition to the above para, have you been able to find out in your area, how people correct for your tap water problem?

;)
PP
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia

How to account for maple sap in BIABacus?

Post #12 made 12 years ago
by cazadoro
I haven't seen specifically that maple sap will dry it out, but adding sugar to up alcohol does. If the sap ferments completely out wouldn't it do the same thing?

For tap water, apparently most people just build up RO water. I have never had to deal with the problem so need to do some research in this area.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From United States of America

Post #13 made 12 years ago
by BobBrews
cazadoro,

Remember it takes (from memory here) 10 gallons of sap to boil down to 1 gallon of maple syrup. So it is a weak aroma at best. Maybe just buy real syrup? A brewer friend (who owns a brewery) Occasionally makes a maple sap beer called "Spike’s Maple". When it was a small brewery it was easy to get enough maple sap to fill the order. Now that he sells nationally he would probably use a whole farms output? If you want to know about brewing with the sap contact O'So Brewing company in Plover Wisconsin. Marc still occasionally brews Spike Maple.

http://osobrewing.com/oso-one-off-beers/
Last edited by BobBrews on 13 Mar 2014, 20:34, edited 1 time in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #14 made 12 years ago
by cazadoro
Thanks Bob, but from what I have read it is more like 40 gals sap = 1 gal syrup. I am honestly not going for aroma or flavor change by using the sap. The primary goal was to brew with something other than my tap water and have a beer without the off flavors that I have had since my move. Looks like the rest of the brews I do throughout the year will be with RO water, but I happened to luck out and house I just bought has 3 maple trees :) Figured it was worth a try. Two of them have thrown buds now so the sap really has a "tree" flavor to it. Apparently not good for syrup, but back in the day they used to add hops and boil it down to the right strength. I don't know what that strength is because I stopped researching here, but I would assume it isn't too concentrated. The article I read made it sound like a nice refreshing drink for the dog days of summer.

At this point I would be happy with a great tasting beer. Any additional complexity in aroma or flavor from the sap is just a bonus.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From United States of America

Post #15 made 12 years ago
by goulaigan
I am interested in how this turned out, as I have been planning to do a maple sap brew for a while. Sap just started running here in Northern Ontario, but I got 10 gallons in 3 days from 10 trees. Now it got cold again unfortunately tho... Was hoping to brew it this weekend... Did you end up brewing yours?
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Canada

Post #16 made 12 years ago
by cazadoro
I did brew it, I actually should have bottled it according to PP's schedule a few days ago, but have been sick with the worst flu I have ever had. Haven't had the energy to do the dishes... let alone wash the bottles. Sap strengths apparently vary by region/tree/weather, but most of mine ended up in the 1.008-1.012 range.

I emailed Bob's friend and got the following as a response:

I can't give you the current recipe that O'so Brewery uses to brew this beer, but I can give you the 'clone' extract recipe that we sell at Point Brew Supply, a sister company to O'so Brewing Company. You can skip the maple syrup if you're using sap, and then just substitute maybe 10 lbs. of 2-row for the DME. I'm not sure what temperature they are mashing this beer at, but I would think that it would be somewhere around the 153 degrees F range.

Here goes:

4 oz. Aromatic Malt
4 oz. Crystal Rye
4 oz. Golden Naked Oats
6 lbs. Golden Light DME
1 lb. Maple Syrup
.5 oz. Challenger Hop Pellets (60 min.)
.5 oz. Challenger Hop Pellets (30 min.)
1 oz. Cascade Hop Pellets (5 min.)
Windsor Ale Yeast

If you have any trouble sourcing Crystal Rye or Golden Naked Oats, you can purchase them from our website at pointbrewsupply.com. Let me know if you have questions. Good Luck!
-------------------------

I didn't want to boil the sap down to syrup to just turn around and mix it with more water, but it looks like that is what you need to do for the traditional carmel syrup notes. I don't expect brewing with just the sap will impart a strong maple flavor, but for me it allowed me to avoid buying RO water for this brew. Plus who knows it might give some nice complexity.

Best of luck, and let us know what you brew and how it works out for you!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From United States of America

Post #17 made 12 years ago
by goulaigan
Thanks for the update, I am planning an oatmeal stout, and figure if I can't taste any maple come bottling time I'll just prime with maple syrup since I'll be making a bunch. Can't get much more Canadian than maple beer haha. Anyway, I hope you feel better soon, interested to hear how it tastes, and thanks again for the info!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Canada
Post Reply

Return to “BIABrewer Old Hands”

Brewers Online

Brewers browsing this forum: No members and 6 guests