Hi Guys,

I want to make the simple vienna lager recipe described at Brulosophy. I threw the recipe into the BIABacus and the numbers seem real close. The recipe does not supply the VAW so is there actual integrity, or the #s just happen to match?

Thanks,
Steve

Hello @shetc,

I saw your post a few days ago but forgot to review in detail or respond... @PistolPatch would be the best deciphering which recipe has integrity and which does not. Or perhaps @ShorePoints or one of the other experienced brewers on here may have additional input. I think most recipes have integrity issues because it is normally not clear if it is volume into fermenter or volume into packaging. So we have to guess and just try and be close.

Just pulled up Marshall’s Short & Shoddy recipe for the Vienna. He lists his batch size as 5.2 gallons but we don’t really know if this is before or after packaging. Marshall would probably respond to an email but you may have to interpret our terminology to make sure he understands the question. And a quick note that his mash temp and yours were different... (154 vs 150 deg Fahrenheit).

I recently bought the Homebrew All-Stars book which features recipes from a bunch of different brewers (including Marshall) and volumes of each beer are different from each brewer. Marshall’s recipe in this book are stated as 5.0 gallons. (Some other brewers in this book are posted at 5.5 gallons, 6.0 or 6.5 gallons, etc.) My guess is that is VIP, but that’s just a guess. So if I brew anything here, I will have to guess as well. Pat is more precise, and that is good.

Another question - is Marshall’s Tettnanger Hop US or from Germany. Big difference in these two hops... US Tettnanger is much more like and may even be Fuggles (possibly from mislabeled plants many years ago). Marshall’s Tetts are likely German and probably should be but the recipe is not clear.

Marshall’s malt is also different than yours. Yours will allow you to get in the ballpark, but Mecca Grade is a fairly unique malt that seems to drink or taste bigger than most other malts. Mecca Grade uses Full Pint barley variety, which grows well in Central Oregon, and seems to add more body per gravity than other malts...or that’s my take from having used it a dozen or so times. A 4.5% ABV beer feels more like a 5.0% ABV, etc.

Worst case - a recipe lists a Tinseth AA estimate and if we put that into BIABacus file, even without a correct VAW, and insert a target Tinseth AA estimate like you did. This is an excellent tool to allow us to get close. There will be differences in everyone’s exact system and individual techniques that will result in non-identical results anyhow... So, these are my thoughts. Hope it works out for you. Let us know how it works out.

Usual top info from @Scott and a good question Steve . I've been a bit absent of late so sorry for not seeing this sooner. This is a good example for those who want to use the BIAbacus to help them work out the VAW of a recipe.

In the link @shetc gave to the Brulosophy recipe, the page has a BeerXML file which is a file in a format made up among several brewing software many years ago. The terminology used in the BeerXML file is often vague; we still have terms like Batch Size and Efficiency used. For example, the recipe says the Efficiency is 63%. Also some amounts are in metric while others are in US. Wtf? Anyway, here is what I've changed in shetc's original file.

First I made sure the ratios of grain were correct by typing in the actual amounts on the left of Section B instead of the 99% and 1% that Steve had.
Secondly, I went to Section X and forced the efficiency to 63% to match the BeerXML file. I also put a zero in for KFL and FPL. This effectively changes the VIF in Section A to be the VAW.
Thirdly, I added the Yield info on each grain into Section Y. (Yield is another term that is really vague.Usually it means Fine Grind Dry Basis or FGDB and there is zero moisture content.)


Then I typed 19.87 into the VIF of Section B and then checked the right hand side of Section B. It came up with 12.23 pounds of Vienna malt and 1.92 ounces of the Pale Chocolate Malt. (This is extremely close to the original recipe's 12.25 and 2.0.)

The Real Story

When the VAW of a recipe isn't given, the above is about as easy as it gets to determine it. To get the above, I actually had to play around a lot before I could get things to match. The 63% could have easily been EIF instead of EAW. The Yields may have included moisture content. The 19.87 may have been the volume of the hot wort so I shrunk that by 4% several times. In other words, there are a lot of numbers that could mean anything! Often, you won't be able to get a recipe to "balance" no matter what you do as there is simply not enough info to dig up.

You'll notice the IBU's don't match the original recipe. This will be due to the original program using an incorrect Tinseth formula. As for colour not matching, I can't find anything in the BeerXML file that will help us there. I'd guess the same error applies here as to the bitterness formula, they'll probably have based it on VIF instead of VAW. Don't worry about it

So, in the file below, I have typed 19.87 into the VAW field in Section C as well.


Now that we have all that done, we know the VAW and can get things set for our own equipment....

The File to Use

In this final file, I've deleted some things I did above. I got rid of the two zeroes in Section X. I've left the mash temp as what Steve had as I think it's more reasonable. As for the 63% kettle efficiency in Section X, what I've done is typed minus 15% in, instead of 63. This ends up giving us a higher kettle efficiency than the 63% which is more realisitc because we're BIAB'ing. The kettle efficiency is very low because the mash is only going for 20 minutes. I've changed the VIF to 25 just for fun. All you have to do though in this last file is...

Type whatever number you want into VIF in Section B.
Type in your kettle diameter into Section B.


And you are good to go!

Cheers
Pat

Firstly, I want to say this is awesome feedback. Secondly, I forgot to check back here before brewing the original recipe that I posted so I want to apologize for my impatience Now the thing is that the beer came out great -- 5 gallons did not last very long. I want to make this a house regular so all is not lost as I will try Pat's revised version next. Thanks very much, Pat!

Now a little side note: Brulosophy brewed this beer using their so called Short & Shoddy methods. In particular, they ferment with Imperial Harvest lager yeast at ale temps, which means a very short fermentation and virtually no lagering. I did the same.

Good stuff @shetc . The email notifications letting you know that there has been a reply to your topic can be very erratic. They sometimes work for a few months and then stop and then start working again.

Glad to hear it turned out nicely. Good on you