Dried Yeast - Sprinkle or Re-hydrate?

Post #1 made 11 years ago
MODNOTE: The first six posts below have been moved from another thread as there are several valuable links and ideas below.
PistolPatch wrote:5. Just sprinkle dried yeast - If you aerate your wort, which you should be doing, then just sprinkle the dried yeast. This allows it to settle on the bubbles where it can slowly acclimatise to temp, humidity and gravity. When you think about it, it is much easier to shock and damage yeast by rehydrating it especially on a small scale.
I rarely disagree with PP, and when I do, he typically explains in a convincing fashion why I am wrong. Here I have to disagree with him.

I believe in reydrating dry yeast, based on this explanation by Dr. Clayton Cone of Lallemand (Lalvin) yeast. The science points to rehydration of dry yeast. Many people say that they get fine results without rehydration, but this seems to be because the sheer number of yeast cells in a dry yeast packet allows for success in spite of the yeast damage/die-off from lack of rehydration. I find it odd that some people will go to great lengths to make a starter with liquid yeast to ensure a high starting cell count, while ohers use a practice that will damage or kill a large number of dry yeast cells (again referring to statements by Dr. Cone.)

And, just to show you that I can be inconsistent, as well, I always aerate my wort, even when using dry yeast. But here, Lallemand says that you don't need to aerate the wort when using dry yeast.

I don't claim to be an expert and I only know what I read (in this case), but I am reluctant to disagree on hydration with an expert scientist in the field. This may be one of those in theory/in practice arguments, though, because many people say they do just fine without rehydrating.

I've gotten flamed for this position in other forums, so I thoroughly expect to get flamed again here. C'est la vie. :argh:
Last edited by smyrnaquince on 09 Jun 2013, 04:35, edited 2 times in total.

Post #2 made 11 years ago
SmyrnaQuince, to step off topic,

Wine(not Whine)makers do not airate the "must" becuase they believe it will cause major off flavors from the yeast growing too quickly...Hmmm.

So, the yesst grows slowly, the fermentation takes 3-6 weeks in cool conditions.

We, lager the wort to keep esters from the finished beer, for the same reasons, winemakers ferment the same way.

But, as an ALE MAN, I need to re-hydrate the yeast and Airate the wort to get the yeast going fast and make the esters that we only have In ALE. "Such is life"
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Post #3 made 11 years ago
The Lallemand page says " there is no need to aerate the wort", so I assume they are talking about beer.

So, I follow their recommendation about rehydrating the yeast, but I ignore their advice about no need to aerate when using dry yeast.

Post #4 made 11 years ago
smyrnaquince wrote:I believe in reydrating dry yeast, based on this explanation by Dr. Clayton Cone of Lallemand (Lalvin) yeast.
I won't say much here Dave as I don't want to take Greg's thread off-topic. Firstly, there would be no harm in starting a new topic on re-hydrating versus sprinkling. Secondly, that is a great link you have given :salute:. If you create a new topic, I'll make sure I try and explain the practical pros and cons better there.

Nice one :peace:,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Jun 2013, 20:28, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #5 made 11 years ago
July 28, 2011 - BYO-BBR Yeast Rehydration Experiment :love: http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?p ... radio-2011

Chris Colby, editor of Brew Your Own Magazine, and Sean Terrill, head brewer of Silverton Brewing Company, help James examine the results of the latest collaboration experiment. Sprinkle or Rehydrate?

Streaming mp3 http://traffic.libsyn.com/basicbrewing/ ... tprime.mp3
Last edited by BobBrews on 10 Jun 2013, 22:15, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #6 made 11 years ago
BobBrews,

Wow! Thank you. These guys ran experiments rather than just saying "It always works for me."

I need to re-think what I want to do regarding rehydrating yeast.

I'll stop spouting off on forums about rehydrating yeast.

Post #7 made 11 years ago
smyrnaquince,

Go back to BBR to check out more of "Brewing Myth Busters". You may have to hunt around a bit but they have done a LOT of experiments testing (and overthrowing) accepted practices. We know that BIAB is radical but it works. So is No-Chill! Cheers!!
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Post #8 made 11 years ago
i rehydrate. the manufacturers (Lallemand and Fermentis) specify this for the commercial users.
I think that they may not specify this for the homebrewers as to simplify the process and not put people off by complicated procedures.
Cube:
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Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
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Post #9 made 11 years ago
smyrnaquince wrote:BobBrews,

Wow! Thank you. These guys ran experiments rather than just saying "It always works for me."

I need to re-think what I want to do regarding rehydrating yeast.

I'll stop spouting off on forums about rehydrating yeast.
Hold on Dave! I think you are being way too hard on yourself. Those experiments are very inconclusive and, in many aspects, contradictory. Your original question and the above links etc have got me re-visiting the subject for the first time in several years. I know a bit more now than I did several years ago. For example...

There is one massively, major thing that hasn't been mentioned once, anywhere that I have seen...

Yeast is killed or at least severely offended by most tap water.

I only found this out when I started making sourdough bread in the last few years. My teacher stressed that you must filter the water. Never before had I heard this advice on a brewing forum or in a brewing book. This is however the most basic and most important advice in looking after your bread yeast.

So, this one fact might explain several contradictions we have seen in the links above. One person re-hydrating with tap water just brought to the boil and cooled is probably killing half their yeast whilst another one re-hydrating their yeast with water that is totally chlorine-free will not be getting that problem. A person using warm water straight out of the tap will be getting the biggest problem of all.

If you are re-hydrating then I think you should be wort acclimatising as well.

If my conclusion above is right, then by not using filtered water to re-hydrate, I was probably doing a lot of damage in the days when I used to re-hydrate. One thing I did do however which I still think now is right, was to gradually add wort to the re-hydrated solution.

So, I think that if you are re-hydrating, you should also be 'proofing' - i.e. exposing the yeast to 'sugar' gradually.

If sprinkling, are you doing it onto bubbles?

In my mind, there is a big difference between dumping dried yeast directly on to the top of a liquid wort than there is in sprinkling it over a freshly aerated wort where there is a sea of fine wort bubbles. When I sprinkle, I am sprinkling onto a sea of fine wort bubbles. This suspends the dried yeast.

I think that the dried yeast being held in suspension probably does two things. Firstly, it allows one part of the yeast cell wall to be penetrated first rather than the complete cell wall being assaulted in an instant. The problems of a full on assault are described in Dave's first link.

Secondly... well, I think that one point above negates all/most secondary things :think:.

What I'd like to see/know...

I'd like to know, in the above experiments, how many brewers used filtered water in their yeast hydration. I'd especially like to know this in Jacques Bertens's experiments. I suspect in his experiments, the water was not chlorine-free.

I'd like to see, in future that those who re-hydrate are more specifically instructed to ensure firstly, that their water is made chlorine-free and secondly, that they do some sort of proofing (requires sugar/extract or wort).

What I'll do next...

Thanks to Dave raising this topic, on my next brews, I am going to try re-hydrating/proofing again but with chlorine-free water. There's one niggly thing I have had in some of my beers over the last several years which most people don't notice. I'd be interested to see if correct re-hydration/proofing makes it disappear.

:interesting:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 12 Jun 2013, 18:01, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #10 made 11 years ago
Another series of experiments is on the horizon. :clap: Another excuse to brew! :thumbs: The simpler it gets the more complicated it becomes. :headhit:
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Post #11 made 11 years ago
One experiment would be to divide your wort into multiple fermenters:
  • Dry yeast
  • Hydrated yeast, tap water
  • Hydrated yeast, dechlorinated water
For hydration, you'd have to do it right. Correct hydration temps and no longer than 30 minutes of hydration before using the yeast.

For a really interesting experiment, add in one more batch: Get the liquid equivalent to dry yeast you are doing. Use Mr. Malty to figure out the cell count in the vial/smackpack. Weigh out the correct amount of dry yeast to match that cell count and use that amount in each of the three fermenters mentioned above.

The trick here would be to have enough wort to divide among the fermenters so that you are not overpitching for any of the experiments. If you are overpitching, the number of yeast cells that you might damage or kill may not matter much. If you don't have a big kettle (I don't), you'd have to definitely use partial dry yeast packs and a partial vial/smackpack of liquid yeast.
Last edited by smyrnaquince on 13 Jun 2013, 01:35, edited 2 times in total.

Post #12 made 11 years ago
You can ALSO take a pint or two of the wort, and rehydrate the yeast for an hour, and then add it to the fermenter!

IMHO
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Post #13 made 11 years ago
joshua wrote:You can ALSO take a pint or two of the wort, and rehydrate the yeast for an hour, and then add it to the fermenter!

IMHO
what's the point of that? if it's rehydrating in wort, why not just sprinkle it onto the wirt in the FV ?
Last edited by shibolet on 13 Jun 2013, 13:52, edited 2 times in total.
Cube:
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Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:

Post #14 made 11 years ago
If you have time, you can pull the pint wort from a No-Chill Cube the night before you start fermentation, add the yeast, and then drain the No-Chill Cube thru a fiter the next morning, and have clear wort.

I also found re-Hydrating the yeast in wort, will take 6-7 hours to start fermention VS sprinkling takes 12-16 hours to Start fermentation.

Just a 10 batch Observation of my Winter brewing!
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Post #15 made 11 years ago
Just quickly Josh, I think what shib is emphasising is that re-hydrating must first be done in water.

If you pour wort onto dried yeast, it is defenceless for a short period. In other words, some things contained in wort that are undesirable are allowed to penetrate the yeast cell. Re-hydrating in water first and then gradually exposing the yeast to 'sugar' prevents this by allowing the yeast cell to build its defences.

Not a great description of what goes on sorry but hopefully enough to clear that up I hope :scratch:.

;)
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Post #16 made 11 years ago
PP is right (for once) :argh: The idea is not to allow anything besides water to penetrate the forming cells. As per usual I will say that it probably doesn't make enough difference for 98% of the brewers as to what you do. We are not as sophisticated (pallet wise) as to taste the difference. The only caveat is that the longer it takes the yeast to get rolling the more time a bad yeast has to dominate the sugars and spoil the beer or at least compromise the flavor profile. :nup:
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Post #17 made 11 years ago
Bob - your percentage plucking is awesome, I reckon you do that 23% of the time in your posts :lol:

I think at the end of the day we are trying to inoculate our wort with the correct amount of yeast & in a healthy manner.
Is there any data to support survival rates of wort Vs pure H20 methods?

Can you guarantee that your dried packet of yeast is 100% viable anyway regardless of method used?
Just saying that even if somebody did this, it may not be a definitive indicator.
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Post #20 made 11 years ago
joshua wrote:Maybe we should Kill the Topic viewtopic.php?f=50&t=1394 "Real Wort Starter?"
That topic is fine as it relates to liquid yeast or yeast that is already hydrated.
Last edited by Nuff on 14 Jun 2013, 02:33, edited 2 times in total.

Post #21 made 11 years ago
If this is the case, then John Palmer says http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html

and Mike Brewer says http://mikesbrewreview.com/how-to-rehydrate-yeast/

or Dan Listermann and Dr. Clayton Cone discuss this at http://koehlerbeer.com/2008/06/07/rehyd ... yton-cone/

and finally Norther brewer states http://www.northernbrewer.com/connect/2 ... -hydrated/

I hope these links will help.
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