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H2O2

Post #1 made 11 years ago
by GuingesRock
Does anyone know anything about using hydrogen peroxide to sanitize the kegs and the lines. I believe it is used in commercial brewing, but don’t know if it is used on a small scale. Hydrogen peroxide is nice to work with and degrades to oxygen and water only which obviously are harmless (I wouldn’t want it to oxidise the beer though). At the biochem lab where my wife works they have moved over to hydrogen peroxide for sterilizing for the same reasons. I believe it would be diluted in water before use similar to Starsan.


So Starsan is great to use and degrades into phosphates which act as a yeast nutrient, so that might be good for the fermenter, but at kegging time, I'm not sure how much yeast activity is going in the keg and how much Left over phosphate I want to drink in my beer:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/241701.php

I've been rinsing the starsan out of my kegs with hot tap water. Haven't had any infection problems doing that. But I still wonder about H2O2.

My conclusion from this thread is that I will gontinue using Starsan with a light hot tap water rinse and watch out for problems. I may try “one step” as a one stage H2O2 no rince cleaner and sanitizer as a time saving measure. I have to look into Iodophor more. Thanks very much for the help.
Last edited by GuingesRock on 02 Jan 2013, 03:17, edited 8 times in total.
Guinges

Post #2 made 11 years ago
by thughes
I'd be interested in learning more about peroxide as a sanitizer/cleaner.

BTW, Starsan is a contact sanitizer, when you rinse it out of your keg with hot water you are in essence removing that sanitized protection and coating the keg with whatever nasties might be present in your tap water! I'm just sayin......
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Post #3 made 11 years ago
by joshua
Good Day, Normal strength hydrogen peroxide is a good cleaner for Organic systems, But as a Sterilzer you will need to 35% type product at full strength.

This strong product is dangerous to use since it is a stong Oxidzer!!!

Think of the NASA rockets using Alcohol and 99% hydrogen peroxide as a propellent.

Todd is correct Starsan is a better sanitizer. I like Iodifor.

Ps. If you need to limit the amout of phosphorus in you diet, Avoid Coke and Pepsi.....phosphoric acid is what gives them the Tang!
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Post #4 made 11 years ago
by GuingesRock
Hi Todd, I saw a video from the seventies where the guy was rinsing out bleach from his bottles with water from the hot tap. He reckoned that the water was essentially sanitized by passing through the hot water tank. I also googled it and found some posts saying it was ok. I dunno. Has anyone had problems doing that?

Hi Joshua, Thanks, I think the usual (commonly available) strength is 3% though and has many household sanitizing uses. Are you sure it needs to be that strong to sanitize? If so it isn’t practical. It's sanitizing that's needed. Maybe 35% is what's needed to sterilize? Interesting about Coke and Pepsi.
Guinges

Post #5 made 11 years ago
by joshua
Guinges, Sanitation really depends on the Sanitzers strength, and time of Contact.

3% can work with a long contact time, as Starsan and Iodifor need a few minutes of contact.

I you can get a good size amount of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide, at a good Price use it.

In America, H2O2 in gallon sizes cost more than a 4oz bottle of Iodifor that will make Many gallon of sanitzer.
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Post #7 made 11 years ago
by GuingesRock
I did some more Googling :geek:

I came across “1 Step”. It is no rinse, it uses hydrogen peroxide to sanitize and clean in one step and it is cheap (compared to PBW + Starsan).

http://www.beer-wine.com/products/one-step-cleanser

Looks very interesting and time saving. I expect you all know about it, but it’s the first time I have stopped to look at it. Does anyone use it to clean and sanitize at the same time? I might give it a try.

It’s not FDA rated as a sanitizer, but it’s apparently because the company “didn’t want to go through the process”

It's worth clicking on the product reviews on this link:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/one-step.html
Last edited by GuingesRock on 02 Jan 2013, 07:41, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges

Post #8 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
I'm a bit unsure on this :scratch:.

What worries me is that h202 is not an acid. Something like Starsan has two purposes. One is to sanitise and the other is to remove the micro-film that detergents (alkaline cleaners) and water leave behind. This mineral film builds up and can trap micro bacteria only to be released later in the acidity of the wort. This is the problem with things like bleach*. Maybe ask your wife to get some more info on how/why they are using h2o2 and how they avoid the mineral layer build-up?

Avoid using the hot water to rinse for two reasons. Most hot water systems don't reach a temp that kills all bacteria. Secondly, this water will leave behind the micro-film mentioned above.

Certainly don't worry about Starsan affecting your brew. The mix is 0.8 ml per litre and then you are tipping all the 'liquid' out so a miniscule amount of chemical is left behind. This then gets diluted by your brew.

:peace:
PP

* If you do end up using it, make sure you find out whether hot or cold water should be used. Many people use bleach with hot water but this actually immediately destroys its sterilisation capabilities. H2o2 may well be the same :think:.
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Post #9 made 11 years ago
by GuingesRock
Hello PP,

Some very interesting thoughts and information there. Thanks.

Here's another thought along the same lines (under the sink ozonated water generator) http://www.air-zone.com/water.html
Quote from the link: When fruits, vegetables, seafood, and meat are placed in ozonated water, surface bacteria are killed. Harmful pesticides and herbicides are rendered inert making foods safer to consume.
Food also lasts longer after it has been ozonated.

Purifying meats, fruits, and vegetables with the Air-Zone® XT-301 could not be more easy.
A simple air hose leads to an aquarium type rock that bubbles the ozone through water.


Place the hose in a bowl of water that contains the food.
Set the automatic timer for the 15, 30, or 45 min preset time and watch the as ozone bubbles through the water and purifies the food.
Since the machine will turn off automatically after it's preset time, all you have to do is set it and forget it.

A bowl full of food takes no more than 15-20 minutes to purify.

Freshly ozonated water can also be used to disinfect surfaces of bacteria.

Simply use the water in spray bottle and spray it on surfaces to help disinfect them of bacteria.

I note your concerns about tap water. We are on town water here, which I believe should be fairly free of bacteria due to government controls. Again it’s the sanitization vs sterilization argument. At least the water should have been pasturized by going through the hot tank. I'm not saying you're wrong as I've only done it a few times without problems. I could yet trip and fall.
Last edited by GuingesRock on 02 Jan 2013, 18:25, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges

Post #10 made 11 years ago
by joshua
Guinges, Do you have a boiler or a waterheater tank....In america our water heaters seldom are hotter than 130F/55C.

I saw...In Canada, all milk produced at a processor and intended for consumption must be pasteurized, legally requiring it to be heated to at least 72°C for at least 16 seconds, then cooling it to 4°C to ensure any harmful bacteria are destroyed.

You must be Lucky to have a source of Hot water this good!!!!
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Post #11 made 11 years ago
by GuingesRock
Good point Joshua. Our water heater was shipped from the factory with the thermostat set to 60 degrees C. You are supposed to turn it down to 49 or lower if you have small children.

What do you think about my argument that town water should be reasonably sterile any way, before it even goes into the hot water tank?

I usually just run a litre or two of hot tap water into the keg, give it one quick swill around and dump it into the sink, so there is probably some Starsan still in there, but not too much. I also find doing that I don’t get a mass of foam on top of the beer. Before I started swilling out the excess Starsan I couldn’t tell when the keg was getting full because of all the foam and one overflowed on the kitchen floor which was frustrating. I ended up feeling for the beer rising with a starsan dunked finger in the next keg.

Ozone use in the beer industry: http://www.ozonesolutions.com/Ozone-Res ... -And-Pipes

Funny one on ozone and beer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGgkDdTRHCo (not very scientific)

I think my conclusion from this thread is I’ll probably carry on with the Starsan and a slight rinse. Although One Step sounds interesting and I might try it. Thanks for helping me get my head around things. I'll pay heed to your cautions and watch out for problems.
Last edited by GuingesRock on 03 Jan 2013, 01:39, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges

Post #12 made 11 years ago
by joshua
Guinges, Down here our water IS sterile, during Hot periods a lot Of Chloramine (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine ) is added to our water. I need to use 2 Campden Tablets to clear this from my brew water.

I like "Iodofor" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodophor ) because it is NO-Rinse when prepared properly, and can be made strong, as a disinfection wash, for BIG problems.

Check the Basic Brewing site ( http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrew ... -22-07.mp3 ) for a podcast from the Guy who created it.
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