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Rye Beer and Rice Hulls

Post #1 made 8 years ago
by aamcle
I'm planning to try a Rye beer again (Ratio 3/2.5 Rye to Pale Malt) on my recirculating system, the last time I tried this I got a stuck mash, very stuck even suspending the bag to drain resulted in a slow trickle of liquor.
I had used a beta glucan rest but it still stuck this time I'll give it longer 20 mins at 45C and I'm considering adding Rice Hulls.

I've never used rice hulls before, never needed to, my question is will they make the difference I need and prevent the mash sticking? I buy my grains crushed, I can't play will the mill settings.

My other option would be to use the Mash Stirrer I built, (http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=2234) Id prefer not to its a nuisance and usually does nothing useful but it might save a Rye.

I'm posting a picture of my bags weave the scale is CM, could that be the problem?

ATB. aamcle
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Post #2 made 8 years ago
by PistolPatch
What an interesting question :think:.

I've never done any rye beers but for new brewers, a grain like rye can really become "gluey" and result in what brewers call the 'stuck' sparge aamcle mentions. To bag brewers, this means that the bag doesn't drain or drains very slowly. If you experienced this problem on a normal brew just using barley, then the culprits would be that your bag is too fine or that you crushed your grain too fine.

aamble has not had these problems from what I gather on his normal mashes just using barley but has had the problem using rye. This is good evidence that his set-up is most likely okay and it is the rye causing the problem. (There's probably a tipping point in this also. You might get away with fine crushed barley to a point, but fine crushed rye might land you in stuckland :)).

When I first saw the question I just thought, "He's on the right track," but then I started thinking about the hulls :scratch: and I was wondering if they retain much of the sweet liquor or if they are impervious? If they are impervious, then what's the difference between adding rice hulls versus rocks? What I'm getting at hee is I think rice hulls will be the answer but I don't really know why they are. Is it that they just absorb the gluey bit of the mash or is it something else?

Will look forward to hearing how you go with this aamcle and/or if anyone knows the real reason why rice hulls work. I've never thought about them in depth before as I have only considered them in a three vessel scenario and the answer superficially looked obvious. Maybe the answer is obvious but if they are impervious then how much volume will a kilo or pound of hulls add to your mash???

Thanks for starting this thread aamcle :salute:
PP
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Post #5 made 7 years ago
by ShorePoints
Primavera, I have brewed the below grain bill for 5 gallons twice - one lager, one ale as an experiment - and it behaved the same way upon pulling the bag each time. The bag was extra heavy to lift because it retained much more liquid than normal. Once lifted, the hot bulging bag was squeezed between two pot lids (as with cymbals). Once the flow though the bag started, it continued at a higher rate than initially, but slower than non-rye brews. I did manage both times to squeeze enough out to hit expected VIB numbers, so it was OK. I always taste spent grain, and both cases were slightly sweeter than the usual wet cardboard, but specific gravity numbers were fine. My bag is made of voile with 35 threads/cm, with more holes/cm than the picture in the post above. The filtrate was not slimy, or viscous, just slightly different. Your 10% rye will be fine.
59.7% Pilsner Germany 2764 grams = 6.09 pounds
27.6% Rye Malt 1276 grams = 2.81 pounds
9.2% Munich malt I Ger 425 grams = 0.94 pounds
3.5% Chocolate malt 162 grams = 0.36 pounds
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Post #6 made 7 years ago
by robertz64
Primavera,
Brewing Classic Styles, Light Hybrid Beer recipe "Kent's Hollow Leg" may interest you.
I brewed it twice using the AG & Rye Options. I have brewed 8 times using the BIABACUS to adapt BCS recipes and enjoyed every pint.
Rye beer is a favorite.
CHEERS!
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Post #7 made 7 years ago
by aamcle
I have brewed 2 beers with a high % of Rye rice the first without hulls, it was a disaster even though I had done a beta glucan rest.

The second time I tried I used the rice hulls and had no problems at all and that was using a recirculating rig.


atb. aamcle
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Post #8 made 7 years ago
by ShorePoints
aamcle, How high is 'high?' I am interested in going higher than the 27.6% rye I have already done. Where is the point at which rice hulls become necessary?
I have had a regional beer called Rye 95 (I-95 is our highway from Maine to Florida) and it is extremely full of rye but I do not have a % in their grist. I'd like to go about halfway there. No that doesn't make it Virginia Rye, but it might be a good name.....
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Rye Beer and Rice Hulls

Post #9 made 7 years ago
by Contrarian
I think the rye will only give you issues if you are recirculating. I've made beers with up to around 20% rye and other than a slightly slower drain than normal not had any issues.

A fellow brewer made a 100% rye beer on his 3V system. His first attempt was a disaster but he managed on the second attempt with a good percentage of rice hulls. I don't know the science but PP is probably spot on, a few big handfuls of blue metal would probably do a similar job!

So I would say unless you are recirculating any percentage should be fine without rice hulls for biab.

Post #11 made 7 years ago
by ShorePoints
Yes, I did a step mash (20 min @ 50 ºC for one of my two brews with the same ingredients (27.6% rye) and in my experience (n=2) there was no difference in the draining of the bag. The second batch is in bottles now. It will be an unfair taste comparison of ale / lager since the lager was @ 8.3 ºC for 6 weeks, but I'm doing it anyway. :drink:
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Post #12 made 7 years ago
by aamcle
I did a Roggen Bier from Greg Huges book.

Rye 1450g
Munich 800g
Carafa 3 60g

Mash
43°C for 20 mins
65°C for 60
75°C For 10 mash out.

Rye can be an issue with or without recirculation, when I tried brewing this without hulls and I hoisted the bag the retained the wort just as if it had been made of plastic.


aamcle

Atb. aamcle
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Post #13 made 7 years ago
by Primavera
This one is in the fermentor.

No issues with draining the bag.

[center]BIABacus Pre-Release 1.3T RECIPE REPORT[/center]
[center]BIAB Recipe Designer, Calculator and Scaler.[/center]
[center](Please visit http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the latest version.)[/center]
[center]RYE IPA - Batch 1[/center]

Recipe Overview

Brewer: Chris Primavera
Style: American IPA
ABV: 5.8%

Original Gravity (OG): 1.06
IBU's (Tinseth): 60
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 1
Colour: 29 EBC = 14.7 SRM

Mash: 90 mins at 64.5 C = 148.1 F
Boil: 75 min

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

77.4% 2-Row (3.5 EBC = 1.8 SRM) 5472 grams = 12.06 pounds
12.9% RYE (11 EBC = 5.5 SRM) 912 grams = 2.01 pounds
6.4% Caramel 10 (3.4 EBC = 1.7 SRM) 455 grams = 1 pounds
3.2% Vienna (50 EBC = 25 SRM) 228 grams = 0.5 pounds

The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

45 IBU Mosaic Pellets (11%AA) 43.1 grams = 1.50 ounces at 60 mins
15 IBU Mosaic Pellets (11%AA) 70.9 grams = 2.50 ounces at 5 mins

Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full-Volume Mash): Saccharifiaction for 90 mins at 64.5 C = 148.1 F

Mashout for for 10 mins at 68 C = 154.4 F

Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Hopsock Used: y

Chilling Method: Immersion Chiller (Employed 0 mins after boil end.)

Fermentation & Conditioning

Fermentation: 1272 for 21 days at 18.5 C = 65.3 F

Secondary Used: n
Crash-Chilled: y
Filtered: n

Special Instructions/Notes on this Beer

Mash-in @ 150°F = 148°F
Last edited by Primavera on 03 Jul 2016, 23:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #14 made 7 years ago
by ShorePoints
I'm looking for where the difference occurs. No issues with drain rate from the pulled bag at ~13% for Primavera, I have made another ale with rye (8.8%) + flaked rye (13.2%) and had no drain rate issue. The OP, aamcle, should not have any problem at 10% rye. Somewhere above 20% rye, there will be a difference, and rice hulls become advisable exactly when??? I am interested in the drain rate from a pulled, suspended BIAB bag, not vorlauf & lautering.
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