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If you had no money restrictions, would you keg or bottle?

Post #1 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
I know this seems a silly question as all of us brewers dream of having beer on tap.

I have 8 kegs and can have 6 of them easily on tap. All 8 if I really want but...

One thing I never thought of before following this dream was that most of the beer that comes out of those kegs, ends up in the bottle anyway. I don't consume much of my beer without company and this is usually on a brew day. In other words, most of the beer I make, I take elsewhere so I am bottling it out of the keg anyway.

I'd like to open up the question, "Is kegging silly?"

In times past, I would have vigorously defended kegging. There is nothing quite like pouring beer from the tap. Now that I have it all though, I am wondering if perhaps the amount of time and money I have spent on kegging could have been better spent on working out more clever ways of bottling because there is also nothing quite like pouring a great beer from a bottle.

In other words, maybe with the money I have spent I could have a truly fantastic bottling plant rather than an impressive but, in a few ways, not so practical pub.

Any thoughts?
PP
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Post #2 made 13 years ago
by EoinMag
You're taunting me right?

:)

Honestly, I'd say get yourself a good beer gun and then you have the best of both worlds. Nothing wrong with having your own pub, but nothing wrong with using a blichmann beer gun to fill any bottles you need when you need to.
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Post #3 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
Oh no! Not the Bilchmann Beer Gun!!! I actually gave mine away!!!

This was about four years ago so maybe they have improved. Back then though, we actually had a thread going on as to what was the worst beer buy you had ever done and the BBG came up near top of the list. I hope they have changed :)!

There are some obvious disadvantages to kegs that we don't like to talk about but maybe should. As to whether these disadvantages outweigh the advantages, well, let's just throw them out there and explore it.

Here's a few...

1. Fittings: Fittings are costly especially if you want decent, easy to use ones.
2. Gas Cylinder/Refills: I have two gas cylinders and regulators. Why? Because when a keg leaks, it drains a cylinder overnight. Leaks are a PITA to find and a heap of the kegs we get leak. Every time you change or add to your set-up is potential for a leak.
3. Every keg needs a Tap: I actually run my beers through one tap but this is another problem in itself. Most people have one tap per keg so, with fittings, we can already start to multiply the cost of a keg by about 3.
4. Bottled Beer Sustains its Character: Usually a beer in a bottle will keep or develop its character. A kegged beer, if being constantly drained, can usually not boast this.
5. Wastage 1: There is a lot more wastage in kegs than bottles unless you can drink as fast as you pour :). I have all my beers under the same pressure etc. Some pour well and some don't. Some pour very badly from the keg into a bottle. Some pour really well.
6. Cleaning/Sanitisation: A keg is harder to clean and sanitise in may ways than a bottle as there are more hidden parts.

I have heaps of advantages to kegs but we always talk about those. For now, I think the negatives are worth a bit more thorough investigation.

Cheers,
PP
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Post #4 made 13 years ago
by EoinMag
The sharing aspect is number one for me to be honest. I have some pressure kegs, I've not set up my ten gallon keg setup yet, I need to clean the inline coolers etc that I got for free and replace a load of the cables.

I recently did a very good partial mash, Old Speckled Hen Clone, it was great, I drank all the bottled ones first and then only had a keg left, I had forgotten to let my brother sample the OSH from bottles...this meant only the keg was left and he has to call over for a beer....

BBG was but an example, not even sure if they're any good myself, but the yanks like em.
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Post #5 made 13 years ago
by bigjoe
Well assuming you don't have equipment or money to begin with then hands down economically bottling cost less IMO.

You need a place for keg. I was lucky my last fridge had space for my keg, the new one I got doesn't. You have to buy kegs and all the associated equip.

Once your setup I don't think bottling offers much savnings.
Joe

Post #6 made 13 years ago
by jmbingham
I think if you have the money and space kegging is the way to go,but then again I jump straight into
kegging so a little biased.I am really busy work 60hrs a week , 2 kids ,a money pit for a house so its been real nice to just rack into a keg and force carb. :D
I bought some 1L swing top bottles to carry to friends houses.It seems I am not allowed over with out my beer now (they were 1$ apiece) :D
Also I can always bottle a batch if I want to bottle age it.I think it would be fun to have a couple of friends over for a bottling party :D really don't think either method is better just what ever method works for you :D

Post #8 made 13 years ago
by wizard78
Since I started Kegging I've never looked back, I grew tired of cleaning and sanitizing bottles not to mention waiting for them to carb up and then having to poor into a jug carefully just to poor straight into glasses. Even if I was to bottle I would keg it first to have nice clear beer no sediment. So my biased opinion is kegging all the way. :cool:
If money was no issue, why wouldn't you set up a keg or 5, you could always bottle carb and condition if you feel the need. ;)
[center]"All right, brain. You don't like me and I don't like you, but let's just do this and I can get back to killing you with beer."
[/center]
[center]Homer Simpson[/center]
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Post #9 made 13 years ago
by hashie
Kegs, for me, are far easier and more efficient.

That said, I brew enough to fill a keg + 4 - 6 bottles from each batch. This way I get the best of both worlds.

Given the opportunity, I would not go back to bottles!
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #10 made 13 years ago
by Cameron
Great question PP.

I am committed to bottling and would like to resist the high-tech world of kegging. For me there is something really nice about aging beer 'on the lees' in bottles. I like reserving bottles for special occasions or to cellar for a while (really wishing I had a whole cellar - wow!). I like to give beers away to friends and visitors so I keep a small supply of 330ml bottles for this reason.

I don't drink heaps of beer every night. In the average week, I'd have 1 glass a night but there will usually be 2-3 days when I'd drink nothing. The problem with this is that I also really love the process of brewing the beer. I'd need to a whole fleet of kegs if I wanted to regularly experiment with recipes and styles. Bottling my 10L batches lets me do this.

I've spent a little bit of money on bottling equipment - bottle tree, sanitiser, second hand beer crates, etc. The cost of a kegging system to cater for my needs would be astronomical by comparison.

Finally, kegging systems take up a lot of space, chew electricity and honestly look ghastly. I don't want my home looking like a football club. On the other hand, bottles are elegant and each is a little one-off miracle waiting to be opened!
Last edited by Cameron on 20 Jul 2010, 15:48, edited 6 times in total.

Post #11 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
Thanks for your thoughts above. Good to hear the BBG is working well for you EoinMag. jimmysuperlative will be pleased - he just bought one :).

I'm still pondering the above. My place is pretty small and everything has to get cleaned in the bathroom. Sometimes I can hardly get in there myself :roll:.

I think I'm really searching for a brewing method that invlolves no cleaning - lol.

Dreaming on,
PP
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Post #13 made 13 years ago
by SacSoul
PistolPatch wrote:Thanks for your thoughts above. Good to hear the BBG is working well for you EoinMag. jimmysuperlative will be pleased - he just bought one :).

I'm still pondering the above. My place is pretty small and everything has to get cleaned in the bathroom. Sometimes I can hardly get in there myself :roll:.

I think I'm really searching for a brewing method that invlolves no cleaning - lol.

Dreaming on,
PP
Dream my ass ;) Put some high-intensity UV bulbs in the bathroom. Rinse with water, turn on UV bulbs overnight, then rinse with water in morning. It will sterilize surfaces that the light can reach, but flavors may be left behind. Oh, and don't stand under the UV bulbs yourself unless you are just dying (sorry, not funny pun :roll: ) to get cancer.
Last edited by SacSoul on 21 Jul 2010, 00:59, edited 6 times in total.
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Post #14 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
Liking your ideas guys :). Surely we could do a forced carb bottling plant cheaply! (Self-cleaning please.)

Funny you mention the UV bulbs SS. I actually searched the net on those for a bit of fun once thinking that if they were cheap they might be good for sanitising at least something in the brewery. The things we brewers think of :roll: LOL.

I'll go and search now for bottling machines. :).

Has anyone got any great bottle washing trees or anything? I must say I got into kegs before I even looked into fancy bottling equipment.
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Post #15 made 13 years ago
by widdley
No money restrictions :cool:

Given that most people appear to object to bottles due to the cleaning chore, Wouldn't it be great if some entrepreneur could start a bottle cleaning service (similar to a nappy service). And to continue the baby analogy, the Government could even give us a 'Brew Bonus' to help offset the cost. [For those readers outside of Australia, our Government pays us $5,000 per baby we have]

Anyway... I was lucky enough to recieve a keg set-up as a wedding gift :D and love it - tip: think carefully about your guest list!

But that said, I do still bottle a bit - generally what doesn't fit in the keg, and really enjoy cracking one of those for special occasions. I treat my bottled beer like wine, they get put down in the cellar where they stay for a year or more (depending on variety). And they definitely improve with age!. The kegs are then for quaffing - in responsible moderation ;)

Probably the best thing I can add to the discussion relates to the bottle conditioning process. Even some of the pro's I know struggle for carbonation consistency and prefer to keg first then bottle on... I think it has something to do with reducing yeast levels to a point that they no longer generate significant CO2, but don't quote me on that as I'm still trying to work it out myself.

Post #17 made 13 years ago
by BobBrews
Bottling sucks! The only way I still bottle is for competition. I do sometimes teach a new brewer and then I bottle with them. My wife was tweaked because I stole bottles wherever I could! My garage was filled to the roof. They are gone now but the scent still lingers. (stale beer)! I keg now. My garage if filled to the roof with kegs and the scent still lingers. (Star San).
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Post #18 made 13 years ago
by widdley
jmbingham wrote:Widdley already have the perfect service two kids. I would be willing to share if you are willing to split the extra 10,000
Thanks for the offer and great idea :idea:
But I already have 1 kid, which means there's plenty of room in the bathtub for more bottles. I will, however need to invest in a waterproof power drill though (make a safer environment for my son to work in).
PistolPatch wrote:Liking your ideas guys :). Surely we could do a forced carb bottling plant cheaply! (Self-cleaning please.)
I'm sure the technology is reasonably well developed... using disposable bottles is a fairly recent phenomenon for most of the world, and many places still do reuse on a commercial scale - the trick will be to make it economical for small batches.

As for self cleaning systems, not sure how it works but my kitchen is one example. I can completely trash it and walk away, and by 10am the next day its spotless again. The wife is sometimes in a bad mood, which is weird, I thought she'd be impressed at how clever our kitchen is :P
Last edited by widdley on 29 Jul 2010, 08:51, edited 6 times in total.

Post #19 made 13 years ago
by wizard78
widdley wrote: As for self cleaning systems, not sure how it works but my kitchen is one example. I can completely trash it and walk away, and by 10am the next day its spotless again. The wife is sometimes in a bad mood, which is weird, I thought she'd be impressed at how clever our kitchen is :P
:lol: Same thing tends to happen at my place! I just wish that sometimes the magic kitchen could put my things where I can find them. :lol:
Last edited by wizard78 on 29 Jul 2010, 15:53, edited 6 times in total.
[center]"All right, brain. You don't like me and I don't like you, but let's just do this and I can get back to killing you with beer."
[/center]
[center]Homer Simpson[/center]
[center]K.I.S.S., B.I.A.B.[/center]

Post #20 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
jmbingham wrote:As for self cleaning systems, not sure how it works but my kitchen is one example. I can completely trash it and walk away, and by 10am the next day its spotless again. The wife is sometimes in a bad mood, which is weird, I thought she'd be impressed at how clever our kitchen is :P
LOL!!! :lol:

jmbingham linked something in another thread the other day which lead me to find Doc & Tasty Style's Keg Cleaner. Hadn't seen that before.

Maybe I will keep my kegs after all :).

Cameron, you'll have to invent the equivalent for bottling now ;). Surely there must be something out there already though?
Last edited by PistolPatch on 29 Jul 2010, 17:22, edited 6 times in total.
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Post #21 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
I've been thinking on this whole subject again today.

A bottle has 1 moving part, easily cleaned and sterilised. A keg set-up has a myriad more parts. They aren't as easy to maintain as us keggers make out. (I should know as I have 8 kegs and very fancy connectors etc.)

So, tonight, I am favouring bottling.

In fact, the only disadvantages to bottling seem to be a lack of some multiple bottle-filling device, a few weeks delay in carbonation and a clever cleaning/sterilising device for multiple bottles.

Any thoughts?
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Post #22 made 13 years ago
by stux
The biggest issue with kegging is working out how to take your beer out with you

I have a picnic setup and recently took 3 19L kegs camping. Swapping the dispensing tap and keg charger worked well.

I now have 4 9.5L kegs and that is a much more portable size

In fact, I'm beginning to recommend the half size kegs to friends who want to get into kegging as they're a mch more manageable size
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #23 made 13 years ago
by NME
I'm a devout kegger, and always will be :P
I bought myself a kegerator, and absolutely loved the novelty of having tap beers at home, and I still do now, 3 years on.

One of my biggest things became the portability of the beer too, which I've been gradually getting over as time goes on. I have one of those 12L stumpy kegs, and managed to score a perfect sized box made from cool room panels which I fill with ice and go. I use a picnic tap and a soda stream bottle for dispensing.

As far as bottling is concerned, I use the same picnic tap fitted with the straight end of a plastic racking cane (thanks again PP ;) ) and a rubber bung. So the cane goes into the bottom of the bottle, the bung seals it and the tap obviously dispenses beer, I just have to make sure I release the pressure from the bottle every now and then. The oldest beer I've had done like this is almost 6 months old, and it pours beautifully. Still nicely carbed and no off flavours at all. So now when I want to take a few bottles with me, I give them a quick clean and sanitise, fill, cap and I'm gone.

I don't know if it's the practice, but I have no dramas cleaning kegs at all. It's relatively quick and easy and I've never once considered not kegging. In fact, I had a couple of batches of beer (well, the bits that didn't fit in the keg) that I bottle conditioned, and I've had some mixed results, which I guess adds to my bias.
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Post #24 made 13 years ago
by hashie
Kegs all the way. I still bottle (4 each brew) but kegs are simpler, easier and quicker.

Cleaning is no problem with PBW and Starsan. There is no way I'd go back to cleaning 30+ bottles every brew day.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #25 made 13 years ago
by stux
As NME said, cleaning kegs is easy with Starsan and PBW

I always do a full tear down/rebuild when I aquire new unconditioned kegs... and that's the most annoying thing. Thing is, I've now torn down and rebuilt my "reconditioned" kegs, and frankly, I wasn't happy with them until I had done that.

So buy unreconditioned 2nd hand kegs, and recondition them yourself, then ya know :)
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12
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