Adjusting BIABacus KFL?

Post #1 made 4 years ago
Gents, Just finished a brew day and going over some old data and looking at what may be a bit off.

One thing that is standing out over my brew history is KFL is a fair way out.

From 6 brews of NRB's APA with all the Same Grain bill I average a KFL of 3.8 litres. BIABacus is showing me an esitmate of ~ 2.5 litres, so I am constantly getting low VIF numbers


I'm wondering if this is a technique error on my part or do I just need to adjust BIABacus?

I use an Immersion Chiller, Hopsock and 1/2 a Whirlfloc tablet each brew so wondering if there's something else I should be looking at doing or is it just time I should be looking to adjust the KFL percentage to suit my equipment?

It's mainly hot break material and I know not the end of the world if some or all is in the fermenter but if I try keep it out my figures are off.

I was considering filtering it through a hop sock, but figure that really shouldn't be needed.
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Post #2 made 4 years ago
If your consistently getting, or averaging a KFL of 3.8 litres then just go to section X in BIABacus and adjust your KFL there.
Personally I wouldn't stuff about with filtering through a hop sock, just creating extra work in my book.
Al
I used to spill more than I drink these days!

Post #3 made 4 years ago
Bundy, I No-Chill.

Sometimes over night in the Kettle, Other times in a "Cube".

I have to use a Large Funnel to Pour the Kettle.

I have found a tee shirt/Half Pillow Case/5 layers of Cheese Cloth, can capture about 90% Hot/Cold Break, and Any Hop Debris that got out of the Hop sack.

This gives almost clear wort in the "Cube" or Fermenter.

JMHO YMMV
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Post #4 made 4 years ago
Hi Bundy,

The 'whirlpool' setting in section G of 1.3T will also affect the KFL, which is greater if you don't whirlpool. Make sure the setting here is appropriate for your technique.

Cheers
BDP

Post #5 made 4 years ago
I have been wondering about filtering lately myself, as I often have 4 litres or more of KFL, especially with wheat beers etc. That's a gallon or more of potential beer going down the drain :o .

I no chill in the kettle, and siphon to fermentor, so its pretty easy process wise to leave it behind, but not so easy when it comes to dumping/cleaning the kettle and watching potential beer go down the drain. I was wondering what people use to filter, so thanks for the info Josh, how do you sanitize the tshirt? Soak in starsan or boil it? I guess if I could figure out a way to stretch it over something to hold it somehow I could dump the kettle instead of syphoning... Hmmmm...

:think:
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Post #6 made 4 years ago
Goulgan, this may cause troubles, BUT, If you can check the Temperature of your Clothes Dryer, you may find it in Excess of 212F/100C.

I wet/ Wash the Cloth, and dry it in the dryer, It measures 240F, OR take the cloth and put it in an Oven at 200F-275F.

I consider it to be Sanitized, if not Sterilized.

If you can use a LARGE funnel, the cloth can be attached with 6-8 Bulldog clips(Large triangular spring steel paper Clips), and slowly pour in stages, occasionally stirring the sludge from the side of the filter cloth, until the Kettles is Empty.

If you like, use some Gloves and gather the sludge in the Cloth and Squeeze the last remaining wort from the Sludge, and have a KFL less than .5L for 5Gallon/19L.

Again JMHO YMMV.
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Post #7 made 4 years ago
Interesting. Not sure I would trust my clothes dryer, but the oven trick is an idea. I missed the part about the funnel earlier somehow, ut that could work. I may still end up siphoning at least the first half of the kettle, since even the act of carrying it into the house usually makes my back hurt for a few days, but pouring the last gallon or 2 would probly save a clogged siphon...
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Post #8 made 4 years ago
That is a way to move the wort to a Cube.

Siphon the Hot wort into the Cube, slosh it around, then use a funnel with some cloth, and poor the whirlpooled Goop into the Funnel/Filter to collect all the Wort, you can.
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Post #9 made 4 years ago
Josh (and others), you will have missed some earlier post/s I have written on trub filtering pre versus post kettle outlet. Any filtering in our kettle scenario needs to happen in the kettle not outside it. I know this might seem very unintuitive but I have a very good analogy for this that will make it clear - am too tired to write it now sorry so please just accept my word for now that any efficient filtering must occur in the kettle.

bundy, did you get my last email? If so, please let me know! As for kettle to fermentor loss, the BIABacus defaults are written in a way that enables you to get under way confidently with your brewing.

KFL is an interesting area. KFL is very unpredictable. In BIABAcus 1.0 (unreleased at time of writing and it won't be until after the Christmas break - too busy), there are two choices you can make on which KFL you select that consider both grain and hop trub. (bundy, I thought you were a beta on that version of the BIABacus which gave you an advanced trub choice???)

...

Regardless, if you have a large variance from the BIABacus predictions on KFL, I would want to know your kettle diameter and height, desired VIF, timings (eg speed of transfers) and, if necessary, a visual on your bag porosity.

Even if I knew all that, I would not be worried about 3.8 litres of wastage. I've had 8 on some brews where I have desired 23 VIF! (I know better now ;)).

Anyway, post the answers to some of the questions I have asked here and maybe a few files? The more info the better,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 19 Nov 2014, 21:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #10 made 4 years ago
PistolPatch, Sorry, that I brought up a way to get as much wort possible into the Fermenter.

It does take More equipment and Time to grab that 1L to 4L.
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Post #11 made 4 years ago
I got to thinking a bit more about this, and wondering, if you just allow some of the trub into the fermentor, will it end up falling out and compacting at the bottom anyway? Easier than trying to filter, but then there is the whole debate about trub's effect on the finished product. So I got to searching the site for 'trub filtering', and found numerous discussions, but one that I found interesting was this http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... ing#p39861

And within that I found a link that Bundy posted about an experiment a fellow did with the same beer fermented side by side, one with extreme amounts of trub and one with almost none-
http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-gr ... ts-are-in/

After that little trip down the reading rabbit hole, and a bunch of other search results from my filtering search here, I think maybe I will stop worrying about losing beer with trub, and just siphon a few truby litres from the bottom of the kettle if it seems theres a lot. Not all the trub but more than I currently do. (I usually stop siphoning as soon as it looks cloudy in the hose)

PP - Personally my variance isn't that large from BIABacus predictions now that I have checked,(did a quick avg over my last 6 brews just now and its just over a litre on avg more than predicted) I would say more so on wheat beers or really hoppy beers, since I never seem to have time to wash my brew bag in time to use it as a hop sock (kids etc.) so that obviously plays a role. (although maybe not since I tell BIABacus NO for hopsock)

So after all the reading and averaging I just did I don't think I'll bother filtering, and I will probably syphon maybe an extra litre or 2 of cloudy/truby wort. Seems the simplest approach always ends up being the best in this hobby...

:shoot:
Last edited by goulaigan on 20 Nov 2014, 03:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #12 made 4 years ago
Goulaigan, you are absolutely Correct, Trub does not do bad or Good things to the Beer.

I filter the Trub, because sometimes, I collect, wash, and reuse the yeast.

It is easier to filter the Trub from the wort before the Fermenter, Then separating the Trub from the Yeast cake.

Also, since I am making 10L batches, every last drop of wort in Important!!
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Post #13 made 4 years ago
PistolPatch wrote: bundy, did you get my last email? If so, please let me know! As for kettle to fermentor loss, the BIABacus defaults are written in a way that enables you to get under way confidently with your brewing.

KFL is an interesting area. KFL is very unpredictable. In BIABAcus 1.0 (unreleased at time of writing and it won't be until after the Christmas break - too busy), there are two choices you can make on which KFL you select that consider both grain and hop trub. (bundy, I thought you were a beta on that version of the BIABacus which gave you an advanced trub choice???)

...

Regardless, if you have a large variance from the BIABacus predictions on KFL, I would want to know your kettle diameter and height, desired VIF, timings (eg speed of transfers) and, if necessary, a visual on your bag porosity.

Even if I knew all that, I would not be worried about 3.8 litres of wastage. I've had 8 on some brews where I have desired 23 VIF! (I know better now ;)).

Anyway, post the answers to some of the questions I have asked here and maybe a few files? The more info the better,PP
Hi Pat, first up No recent emails in the past week or two. So No to that. Qstn.

Re The Beta thing. Yes I have access to that but continue to use 1.3T as thats what's in the Public domain release. I could plug the details over to V25 Beta but haven't tried that.

Re The Bag - Spotlight Swiss Voile - as you and others recommended back in the Old days on AHB - Even made sure the Barcode quoted back then was the right one (and it is still the same one used at Spotlight till this day) So I am sure that's fine.

I'll load up a couple of files here. Thing is everything else comes in as predicted for me, (other than sometimes being a few points low on Gravity but thats no biggy)

I always record Mash Volume , VIB, VAW and take those readings using an engineers stainless ruler from the top of the kettle, With a Spirit level across the urn to act as my top marker point instead of trying to read from the side. I measure form the centre of the Kettle. I use Section U to then calculate that Volume from the measurement from Top of Kettle and record.

They are all really close to what's predicted. Only thing I have ever adjusted in BIABacus to suit my Urn is the Evap rate, and more recently strike temp as was discussed on another thread a few weeks back.

Just once I Chill and transfer to fermentor I hit all the hot break far earlier than BIABacus predicts. DO I get more Hot break beacuase I use an Immersion Chiller?? I dunno

Once I hit the trub I stop transferring and measure that volume (again via Stainless engineers Ruler accurate to 0.5mm) Use Section U again and record the Volume of Trub for my BIABacus records.

After I've got that value I have sometimes kept filling the fermenter with some Trub (as theres still some nice beer mixed in there.)
So you may see a discrepancy between VIF and VAW and that is why as I often do that so I get closer to me desired VIF.

Anyway here's a couple of recent files of the same NRB Recipe, will show the Kettle size etc in there.

I use a hop sock, but for me anyway if I turned that from Y to N the Trub I get would be a lot closer to reality.

So not sure what to do, if I adjust, Turn off the hopsock, Try something different in my Process? Or just ignore it?

Cheers
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Last edited by bundy on 20 Nov 2014, 19:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #14 made 4 years ago
joshua wrote:PistolPatch, Sorry, that I brought up a way to get as much wort possible into the Fermenter.

It does take More equipment and Time to grab that 1L to 4L.
Not a worry at all Josh. The main point I wanted to make but was too tired (lazy?) to do on Thursday is that filtering the wort after it passes through the tap is difficult (the filters clog up very quickly) and can be dangerous (increased infection). If you want to filter trub to a big extent, then putting filters before the syphon or tap cuts out the infection danger and also is very easy. Imagine those old cone shaped coffee filters. What happens in those is that the muddy coffee has access to a large filter area (like a grain in a BIAB mash), Imagine turning that cone upside down and pouring the muddy water through a small hose over the 'top' of that cone. It will get clogged immediately. So putting a filter/s (hp socks, 'scrubby's etc) inside the kettle is often easier.

However! One of the easiest and often over-looked methods of trub management is just doing a gentle transfer. Keep your syphon or pick up tube in the one spot and do the transfer slowly.

At the end of the day though, I wouldn't get too hung up on this unless you are in Josh's position where every drop counts.
bundy wrote:Anyway here's a couple of recent files of the same NRB Recipe, will show the Kettle size etc in there.

I use a hop sock, but for me anyway if I turned that from Y to N the Trub I get would be a lot closer to reality.

So not sure what to do, if I adjust, Turn off the hopsock, Try something different in my Process? Or just ignore it?

Cheers
Thanks for the detail above bundy and apologies for the delayed reply. I wouldn't have any hesitation in increasing the BIABacus trub estimates. It's not a big concern. Try the gentle transfer I mentioned to Josh above but your process sounds great to me.

I think it is far more important to be setting things up so as you get at least the amount of beer you want into packaging. I couldn't see any Volume into Packaging figures in your BIABaci but, at the end of the day, that is really what you want to be aiming for. (In the BIABacus you might have seen in the beta area, one change is that in Section B, VIF and VIP are now both present.) Sometimes people might have lots of kettle trub but not much fermentor trub - all trub will either be removed before the package or end up in it.

So, I think your main focus should be on setting up your brew day (BIABacus numbers) so that you can be sure that you will end up with at least the amount of beer at the right strength into packaging. In other words, err for more volume of a stronger wort than less volume of a weak wort. If you have excess wort at any stage and are paronoid over waste, you can either ferment and bottle it or freeze it and use it for starters or experiments at a later date.

Don't fret over this bundy. Your KFL numbers are in the ball-park. (Be good to see your FPL numbers as well.) Your kettle efficiencies on one of those files were out of the ball-park but we all get that from time to time. If that is a regular occurrence though, that should be your first point of concern.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 22 Nov 2014, 21:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #15 made 4 years ago
PP, there is a problem using Paper to filter water.....Paper and Water make a Mush. That is how paper is made.

That is why I suggest Cloth, it does not clog very quickly, and can be moved to change the drainage places.

Just a question, with all the siphons we use, why, would anyone still use a tap?????
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Post #16 made 4 years ago
Joshua, I think Pat was using an analogy, in how filters in general can work.

Eg use a hop sock to catch trub, like a coffee filter will fill fast, use it to disperse trub in an inverse cone shape will disperse the trub to the sides, whilst still leave open mesh to let the liquid through. I don't read that as recommending to use a paper coffee filter though :)

As for using a tap, my urn has a tap built in approx 2 to 3 cm above the floor of my urn, at that height it's almost perfect to be above the trub level, and it's already there, so one less piece of equipment I need. The old K.I.S.S principle "keep it simple" approach.
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Post #17 made 4 years ago
PistolPatch wrote: Thanks for the detail above bundy and apologies for the delayed reply. I wouldn't have any hesitation in increasing the BIABacus trub estimates. It's not a big concern. Try the gentle transfer I mentioned to Josh above but your process sounds great to me.

I think it is far more important to be setting things up so as you get at least the amount of beer you want into packaging. I couldn't see any Volume into Packaging figures in your BIABaci but, at the end of the day, that is really what you want to be aiming for. (In the BIABacus you might have seen in the beta area, one change is that in Section B, VIF and VIP are now both present.) Sometimes people might have lots of kettle trub but not much fermentor trub - all trub will either be removed before the package or end up in it.

So, I think your main focus should be on setting up your brew day (BIABacus numbers) so that you can be sure that you will end up with at least the amount of beer at the right strength into packaging. In other words, err for more volume of a stronger wort than less volume of a weak wort. If you have excess wort at any stage and are paronoid over waste, you can either ferment and bottle it or freeze it and use it for starters or experiments at a later date.

Don't fret over this bundy. Your KFL numbers are in the ball-park. (Be good to see your FPL numbers as well.) Your kettle efficiencies on one of those files were out of the ball-park but we all get that from time to time. If that is a regular occurrence though, that should be your first point of concern.

:peace:
PP
Thanks PP, Yes your right both those files don't have packaging values as #11 I had just packaged and # 12 is actually still sitting in the fermentor! :P

However looking back at my figures from some other brews my FPL is very close to the estimates. Close enough not to concern me at all.

I also see 2 things in my process that I also would say affects the margin for error in my FPL.

1 - I use 568ml bottles when packaging. If I cant fill a bottle I dont count that (Some days I get lucky others I can only half or 3/4 fill a bottle so there's possibly up to 400 ml discrepancy there)

2 - I Bulk prime so I am actually adding 500ml of Water / Dextrose solution to my overall volume as I rack off to mix in the priming bucket ready for transferring to bottles. So there's 0.5L added.

In general I've been Within about 0.6L either way, so I personally don't see that as much of an issue.

Lastly you mentioned Kettle Efficiency:
This is something I have been pondering of late also. I have been consistently on the low side. Not by a massive amount but I always seem to be 4 points or so low with my GIB.

I previously used Nev to mill my grain and now mill myself. Either way GIB has continued to be slightly lower than expected. (Except for one brew day when it read a crazy high figure, but on secondary testing that figure was an anomaly for some reason) But that's another story as I had already diluted the boil before I found out the measurement error. :idiot:

Looking at some numbers (and taking out the extremes as shown in file #11) I'd say I average ~ 4% lower EIB than expected

So based on all that (and I don't intend to do it yet but if this trend continues I will consider)

What would I adjust in BIABacus is it Section Y?

Or should I be looking more at a process issue? With something I can improve to help increase that number?
Last edited by bundy on 23 Nov 2014, 07:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #18 made 4 years ago
Hi guys,
This is a really interesting thread, I'm in Bundy's camp, my KFL is much greater than it should be. yesterday I was supposed to get 23L VIF, but only got 20L. I think this is partly as I had a really good boil going so I probably lost extra to evaporation. I haven't been filtering but am seriously considering it now, a hop sock over my tap intake might work well? I'll use my spoon to keep it clear. In saying that, I still didn't lose a lot to trub, maybe 2-3 litres at a guess, which is really not much in the big scheme of things. Next brew I'll turn down the boil a bit and see what the difference is.

I really need to have one of you guys on speed-dial lol, maybe a skype session sometime? I have a heap of questions that I'd like to ask a BIAB person, there's only two BIAB'ers in my current club, so that makes life difficult haha.
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Post #20 made 4 years ago
Bundy, trying to wrap my head around this... Sometimes the simple questions are the most overlooked.
1) Did you squeeze the bag? Seems a stupid question , but .
2)I do use a funnel with a screen, it does seem to help EIF.
3)I use an Immersion chiller, funnel with screen, and 1-2 tsp Irish Moss (rehydrated for 3 hours ) and I cut down my KFL by .5gal and VIP another .5 gal.
4) As far as GIB and EIF , after I started milling my grains a little finer my efficiency went up.
In conclusion, maybe letting the HBS crush my grains was not he smart thing to do.
But, rehydrating the Irish Moss definitely helped with my loss. And using the funnel w/ screen seemed to help my efficiency.
Joe
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