Hello all,
I'm hoping for some advise from one or two experienced BIAB brewers to see if I can improve the amount of sugar I get from the grain.
I've a few MiniBIABs under my belt but they have all been much lower Gravity into Boil (GIB) and Gravity of Ambient Wort (GAW) than what I was expecting from using the BIABacus.
For example.
Expecting GAW of 1.048 - actual 1.038
Expecting GAW of 1.065 - actual 1.044
(all readings taken when normalised to 20C)
I have read the previous forum post titled "10 Common Reasons for a Low Efficiency Reading" and think it can only be the actual grain itself or my water pH.!?!?!?
Anyway.
To look closer that the 2nd example
I am doing a miniBIAB in a 40 litre stockpot with 16.83 of water added (using BIABacus)
Bring to 70C strike and add 2082g of grain and keep the mash at 68C for 90mins. Check every 10-15mins and add flame if temp drops any lower.
I am confident of the temperature for I used a scientific grade mercury thermometer on this last run.
I also used two different hydrometers.
I did NOT mash out and I did NOT Sparge. I simply drained and squeezed the bag by hand with rubber gloves on.
Then I boiled for 90mins and chilled in a cold laundry tub.
Dropping from a predicted (FG) 1.065 to actual of 1.044 is pretty bad I think.
A great deal of missing sugar somewhere.
Doing a Mash out and Sparge may help a little but I feel there is something else dramatically affecting my ability to wash out the sugar (or a few combined problems).
Could it be the large pot size I am using for a miniBIAB?
Could the size and shape of the grain bag really affect the efficiency this much? I have a bag that would probably fit a 70 litre pot and a simple "two sides sown together shape".
I have not tested the pH of the water yet I read from other people in the Syndey region that it can be 7-8pH. Could this be too alkaline?
The Grain is Joe White cracked bought from Country Brewer. I have no idea of the shelf life or how long its been sat in the warehouse/shop. It smelt good when boiling.
From looking at my info does anything jump off the page and say "thats it, it must be the pH or old grain".
One final bit of info to throw into the mix. One a previous batch with the same grain the final gravity of a 1.045 batch stopped fermenting at 1.022 - that's a bit odd in itself. It did not taste sweet.
Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Post #2 made 11 years ago
drtablet
The pH can be tested and adjusted with various means so that is probably where you should start checking. PH Test strips or a pH meter can be purchases rather easily. The test strips are quick and easy but lack accuracy. The test meters are more expensive but are more accurate. The choice is yours.
Lastly, The results of all brewing measures are questionable. Most of us screw up someway or another. So don't worry too much about not making numbers that are predictable each and every time. "Your results may vary" as the diet products on the TV expound!
A 90 minute mash (with a few good stirs in between) in the proper pH. will get you "close" to expected reading. Why just close? The crush quality and the grain quality are important also. You can check (and or) fix your crush quality but the age and quality of the grain is out of your control. Normally the grain freshness can be marginalized to the "if I can't control it? Than don't worry about it" category.From looking at my info does anything jump off the page and say "thats it, it must be the pH or old grain".
The pH can be tested and adjusted with various means so that is probably where you should start checking. PH Test strips or a pH meter can be purchases rather easily. The test strips are quick and easy but lack accuracy. The test meters are more expensive but are more accurate. The choice is yours.
Lastly, The results of all brewing measures are questionable. Most of us screw up someway or another. So don't worry too much about not making numbers that are predictable each and every time. "Your results may vary" as the diet products on the TV expound!
Last edited by BobBrews on 23 May 2014, 20:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #3 made 11 years ago
Thanks BobBrews for your answer.
The grains are already cracked. A new source of grain may be worth trying at some point. If only to compare.
But first I think I'll take a look at a pH meter the strips are like you say an indication and not very accurate.
Does anyone know of a good brand of a reliable meter?
Assuming my pH is too high and I need to bring it down what would you recommend as the most "natural" and least offensive on the palate? Something like Phosphoric acid? or Citric acid?
cheers
The grains are already cracked. A new source of grain may be worth trying at some point. If only to compare.
But first I think I'll take a look at a pH meter the strips are like you say an indication and not very accurate.
Does anyone know of a good brand of a reliable meter?
Assuming my pH is too high and I need to bring it down what would you recommend as the most "natural" and least offensive on the palate? Something like Phosphoric acid? or Citric acid?
cheers
Post #4 made 11 years ago
I often hear PP say that multiple cheapo thermometers are a better guide than a single "proper" thermometer. Did you check it against anything? I wouldn't even trust the most expensive thermometer. I use 2-3 of them every time.
Smaller batches are more difficult to nail, but I dunno you seem pretty aware and narrowed it down seemingly well.
The only way the bag size would be a problem is if it was too small, so this isn't the case.
Did you crush yourself? I assume you looked at this already, but I crush my own grains just to have control. If you feel confident the crush was proper, water pH sounds like a reasonable worry.
Water pH in itself isn't a problem. Although 7-8pH sounds normal, Mash pH is what you need to worry about not starting water pH. This is affected by the recipe. Every brew is different in this regard.
I use 46% RO water/54% tap water for my pale ale water profile, with 2-5% acidulated malt, CaCl, and gypsum to hit an ideal pale ale profile. Bru'n'water spreadsheet has worked well for me. I had my water tested, and this is what I came up with to prep my water, it likely wouldn't work for many others. For a stout, a black IPA, or even something with a massive amount of crystal malt ... all of this would change.
There are lots of Sydney folks on here, so maybe they can help with water information and how they go about preparing their water for certain beer styles.
20C also seems a bit higher than most hydrometers are calibrated at. Not that this would make a huge difference in your reading, but it's always wise to chill to calibration temps before trusting your reading.
Smaller batches are more difficult to nail, but I dunno you seem pretty aware and narrowed it down seemingly well.
The only way the bag size would be a problem is if it was too small, so this isn't the case.
Did you crush yourself? I assume you looked at this already, but I crush my own grains just to have control. If you feel confident the crush was proper, water pH sounds like a reasonable worry.
Water pH in itself isn't a problem. Although 7-8pH sounds normal, Mash pH is what you need to worry about not starting water pH. This is affected by the recipe. Every brew is different in this regard.
I use 46% RO water/54% tap water for my pale ale water profile, with 2-5% acidulated malt, CaCl, and gypsum to hit an ideal pale ale profile. Bru'n'water spreadsheet has worked well for me. I had my water tested, and this is what I came up with to prep my water, it likely wouldn't work for many others. For a stout, a black IPA, or even something with a massive amount of crystal malt ... all of this would change.
There are lots of Sydney folks on here, so maybe they can help with water information and how they go about preparing their water for certain beer styles.
20C also seems a bit higher than most hydrometers are calibrated at. Not that this would make a huge difference in your reading, but it's always wise to chill to calibration temps before trusting your reading.
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Post #5 made 11 years ago
drtablet
I am not the expert here on this subject here is some light reading on pH.
I use test strips to check against my cheap Milwaukee pH meter. The strips aren't that bad, unless your color blind?
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html
I am not the expert here on this subject here is some light reading on pH.
I use test strips to check against my cheap Milwaukee pH meter. The strips aren't that bad, unless your color blind?
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html
Last edited by BobBrews on 23 May 2014, 20:27, edited 1 time in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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Post #6 made 11 years ago
And here is some HEAVY reading.
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by Rick on 23 May 2014, 20:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #7 made 11 years ago
Unfortunately I agree with Rick drtablet. I say unfortunately because it's always much easier if we can find something obviously wrong. Really nice analysis and detail above. Welcome to the forumRick wrote:Smaller batches are more difficult to nail, but I dunno you seem pretty aware and narrowed it down seemingly well.
.As for pH strips versus meters, don't be too hard on the strips. You just have to get the right sort. pH meters can be a massive PITA. I have both strips and a meter and I definitely prefer my strips. Anyway, see here.
pH is more critical in pure BIAB because the grain bill itself has far less effect on the pH. In other words, it is more important to get your pH right in BIAB but not that much more important. Those differences between expectations and actuals are massive.
One thing straight off the bat is that Joe White, in the past, has been notoriously low yielding. That will play a part but is certainly not the whole story.
The high mash temp worries me. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that you have two thermometers reading low at mash temps. That would certainly explain everything.
If the hydrometers are of the same brand, consider buying a third. Try and check your thermometers and hydros against those of friends if possible.
For now Dr T, can you post your BIABacus files here with your actuals? You're not meant to post them here but it will be okay. That might be the first step as maybe there is something obvious we are all not seeing?
Fingers crossed!
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 23 May 2014, 21:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #8 made 11 years ago
We had a similar situation here in the UK with Crisps malts giving low yields, coupled with poor temp control would make the problem worse.PistolPatch wrote:One thing straight off the bat is that Joe White, in the past, has been notoriously low yielding
I'd go get a new thermometer and do a brew with a different malt brand. Even a small test mash would help to see if things improve. If you go for a new thermometer ask to see a good selection of the HBS stock. Check several thermometers against each other and pick one from a batch that all match,you could even take your current thermometers to x check.
Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 24 May 2014, 06:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #9 made 11 years ago
DrT , I'm with Yeasty.... try different grains, If you can. That has usually been my low efficiency problem.
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Post #10 made 11 years ago
Thanks everyone for your replies and suggestions.
Temperature:
I used 3 thermometers in this brew.
A coffee style analog thermometer probe that read 66C at the mash
A digital probe that read 70C at the mash
Finally a labratory grade mercury thermometer that was 68C.
I'd certainly lean to trusting the mercury thermometer over anything else but would not want to use it for every brew. Would not want to turn everyone mad as hatters if it was the break.
PistoPatch. Would you suggest I Mash at say 66C instead of 68C? Or even lower? I know IPAs should be mashed lower than usual.
pH.
I now understand it's the pH at mash and not out of the tap. I have some new pH strips (DF Universal Test paper) that I'll be using on my next miniBIAB that should happen Wednesday.
Grain.
I had already ordered a 25KG bag of Cracked Joe White Pale. I picked it up today. It was milled on Thursday so very recently cracked. I'll do my next brew with this.
But also I'll be getting my hands on another Brand mid next week too to try on my 2nd brew of next week which should happen on Thursday.
Hydrometer
I initially used my trusty 15 year old model. But for this last brew I borrowed a mates that he has only had a couple of weeks. They both give the same readings. I did all readings at room temperature (20C-ish)
I've attached by BIABacus that I used for the brew. Its not compete but hopefully with give a little more info.
So to summarise.
TEST 1
I'll do a brew on wednesday but this time with brand new cracked grain. I'll Mash at 68. So to only change one variable at once.
Also to test pH in the Mash.
TEST 2
Thursday if I can get my hands on a different grain (and depending on the results of TEST1) I may also reduce the Mash temp from 68 to 66C
Thanks guys for your suggestions. I feel quietly confident I may get to the bottom of this with your help and suggestions.
Cheers,
Craig (drtablet) A POM downunder.
Temperature:
I used 3 thermometers in this brew.
A coffee style analog thermometer probe that read 66C at the mash
A digital probe that read 70C at the mash
Finally a labratory grade mercury thermometer that was 68C.
I'd certainly lean to trusting the mercury thermometer over anything else but would not want to use it for every brew. Would not want to turn everyone mad as hatters if it was the break.
PistoPatch. Would you suggest I Mash at say 66C instead of 68C? Or even lower? I know IPAs should be mashed lower than usual.
pH.
I now understand it's the pH at mash and not out of the tap. I have some new pH strips (DF Universal Test paper) that I'll be using on my next miniBIAB that should happen Wednesday.
Grain.
I had already ordered a 25KG bag of Cracked Joe White Pale. I picked it up today. It was milled on Thursday so very recently cracked. I'll do my next brew with this.
But also I'll be getting my hands on another Brand mid next week too to try on my 2nd brew of next week which should happen on Thursday.
Hydrometer
I initially used my trusty 15 year old model. But for this last brew I borrowed a mates that he has only had a couple of weeks. They both give the same readings. I did all readings at room temperature (20C-ish)
I've attached by BIABacus that I used for the brew. Its not compete but hopefully with give a little more info.
So to summarise.
TEST 1
I'll do a brew on wednesday but this time with brand new cracked grain. I'll Mash at 68. So to only change one variable at once.
Also to test pH in the Mash.
TEST 2
Thursday if I can get my hands on a different grain (and depending on the results of TEST1) I may also reduce the Mash temp from 68 to 66C
Thanks guys for your suggestions. I feel quietly confident I may get to the bottom of this with your help and suggestions.
Cheers,
Craig (drtablet) A POM downunder.
Post #11 made 11 years ago
This time with the BIABacus attached.
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Post #12 made 11 years ago
Really well-written post drt
Who sold you a bag of crushed grain? That is totally wrong of them drt
. With your batch size, that is going to last ten batches.Gain should not be crushed until brew day or a few days before. If crushed and you want to keep it for longer than that, it needs to be cool, dry and air-tight but even then it shouldn't be kept for so long.
On your other brews was he crushing the grain on the day or pouring it out of some container in which he had already pre-crushed it? You could have easily got all husks.
I'd take that bag back and find a new supplier. I wonder how the hops are kept???
Temperature
I'm pretty sure that the grain you have been given was probably dodge as everything else looks so right. On the temp side, 66 is the safest mash temp as it's right in the middle of the range so with first brews, finding recipes that suit that range is a great idea. With your three thermometers though I think you are fine.
Your File
In Section C, OG usually goes on the left, not the right but that doesn't really matter.
We do need to fix up Section D though as there are a few errors there. Are you copying the recipe from somewhere or designing it yourself? If rom somewhere else, try and give the source. If designing it yourself,how many IBU's do you want?
PP
Uh oh!drtablet wrote:Grain.
I had already ordered a 25KG bag of Cracked Joe White Pale. I picked it up today. It was milled on Thursday so very recently cracked. I'll do my next brew with this.
Who sold you a bag of crushed grain? That is totally wrong of them drt
. With your batch size, that is going to last ten batches.Gain should not be crushed until brew day or a few days before. If crushed and you want to keep it for longer than that, it needs to be cool, dry and air-tight but even then it shouldn't be kept for so long.On your other brews was he crushing the grain on the day or pouring it out of some container in which he had already pre-crushed it? You could have easily got all husks.
I'd take that bag back and find a new supplier. I wonder how the hops are kept???
Temperature
I'm pretty sure that the grain you have been given was probably dodge as everything else looks so right. On the temp side, 66 is the safest mash temp as it's right in the middle of the range so with first brews, finding recipes that suit that range is a great idea. With your three thermometers though I think you are fine.
Your File
In Section C, OG usually goes on the left, not the right but that doesn't really matter.
We do need to fix up Section D though as there are a few errors there. Are you copying the recipe from somewhere or designing it yourself? If rom somewhere else, try and give the source. If designing it yourself,how many IBU's do you want?
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 25 May 2014, 18:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #13 made 11 years ago
PistolPatch wrote:Who sold you a bag of crushed grain? That is totally wrong of them drt
I buy my grain in bulk and crushed. Its kept in the original sacks which have a lining and they are stored indoors which is nice and dry. Never had a problem to date.One thing which can cause a problem though with large sacks of pre crushed is settling. After a while you can end up with all the flour and smaller particles at the bottom of the sack and too much empty husk at the top. So I always give the grain a good mix/shake up before measuring it out.
Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 26 May 2014, 01:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #14 made 11 years ago
The only thing I could think to add here is to make sure to stir the mash. Ive been told to stir every 15 mins and to take temp measurements while stirring. Easy enough to get warmer or colder pockets in a mash so the idea is to stir it up as mush as possible without having to commit yourself to an asylum afterwards. Stir, stir, stir........ stir
I wouldn't be turned off Joe White Pale by the bad experience. Ive used it and never had a problem.
Stir
I wouldn't be turned off Joe White Pale by the bad experience. Ive used it and never had a problem.
Stir
Post #15 made 11 years ago
Hi All,
Yes I was stirring the mash pretty much every 15mins when I took the temp and when I added any more heat.
The original grain I bought last week was in a 4KG sealed bag. I have no way of knowing when it was milled. Could have been days or months since they were cracked.
Going forward it does look like a wise investment should be my own little mill crusher.
The hops were kept at 4C in the shop in zip locked bags and smell great.
Thanks for the suggestions on using BIABacuss
This was the original recipe (below) that I have bastardised some. I think I got it off aussiehomebrewer somewhere.
I have just used the BIABacuss correctly and see that I added a little too to much hops. I made a guestimation.
Galaxy @ 30 I added 5g (should have been 3.9)
Cascade @ 10 I added 12.5g (should have been 12.2)
Citra @ 10 I added 10g (should have been 8.3)
Galaxy @ 10 I added 5g (should have been 3.9)
I guess I was not that far out. I'll see how it taste in a 3-4 weeks from now.
Original recept IBU was 30.4
*** I think from aussiehomebrewer some place ****
Batch size: 23L
Original Gravity (OG): 1.053 (�P): 13.1
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (�P): 3.3
Alcohol (ABV): 5.21 %
Colour (SRM): 10.2 (EBC): 20.1
Bitterness (IBU): 30.4 (Average)
5kg (90.91%) Perle Malt Bairds
.3kg (5.45%) Wheat, Red Briess
.2kg (3.64%) Crystal, Heritage
10g (0.4 g/L) Galaxy (14.3% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil)
25g (1.1 g/L) Cascade (5.5% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
20g (0.9 g/L) Citra (14.1% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
10g (0.4 g/L) Galaxy (14.3% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
thanks again
Craig
Yes I was stirring the mash pretty much every 15mins when I took the temp and when I added any more heat.
The original grain I bought last week was in a 4KG sealed bag. I have no way of knowing when it was milled. Could have been days or months since they were cracked.
Going forward it does look like a wise investment should be my own little mill crusher.
The hops were kept at 4C in the shop in zip locked bags and smell great.
Thanks for the suggestions on using BIABacuss
This was the original recipe (below) that I have bastardised some. I think I got it off aussiehomebrewer somewhere.
I have just used the BIABacuss correctly and see that I added a little too to much hops. I made a guestimation.
Galaxy @ 30 I added 5g (should have been 3.9)
Cascade @ 10 I added 12.5g (should have been 12.2)
Citra @ 10 I added 10g (should have been 8.3)
Galaxy @ 10 I added 5g (should have been 3.9)
I guess I was not that far out. I'll see how it taste in a 3-4 weeks from now.
Original recept IBU was 30.4
*** I think from aussiehomebrewer some place ****
Batch size: 23L
Original Gravity (OG): 1.053 (�P): 13.1
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (�P): 3.3
Alcohol (ABV): 5.21 %
Colour (SRM): 10.2 (EBC): 20.1
Bitterness (IBU): 30.4 (Average)
5kg (90.91%) Perle Malt Bairds
.3kg (5.45%) Wheat, Red Briess
.2kg (3.64%) Crystal, Heritage
10g (0.4 g/L) Galaxy (14.3% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil)
25g (1.1 g/L) Cascade (5.5% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
20g (0.9 g/L) Citra (14.1% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
10g (0.4 g/L) Galaxy (14.3% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
thanks again
Craig
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Post #16 made 11 years ago
Nup, don't do that immediately. PM me with where you are from and who supplied you the grain. Thank God it was only a 4kg bag.drtablet wrote:Going forward it does look like a wise investment should be my own little mill crusher.
Yeasty, how long for and how do you store your grains? Never heard of anyone storing crushed before
.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 28 May 2014, 21:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #17 made 11 years ago
DrT ... If all ayou are doing is 2.1 gal batches then why buy crushed grains ??Not trying to be a smartass but at that small of a batch I would crush at my LHBS. . I only do 5 gal max and that is what I do.
Joe
Joe
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Post #18 made 11 years ago
So, I only managed to do one brew this week. but the results are encouraging.
My mash pH was around 6 which as far as I understand is OK meaning the water does not need to be adjusted.
I mashed at 65C instead of 68C
But I think the biggest difference was the new grain, cracked just one week before.
The main key point for me was I was expecting a Gravity into Boil (GIB) of 1.035 and I got 1.033.
My only worry was my final Gravity of Ambient Wort (GAW) was 1.042 when I was expecting 1.060.
However, I think this can be explained by my Volume of Flame-Out being 12 litres rather than the expected 9.7 litres.
I imagine that if I had boil for longer than 90mins then the sugars would be concentrated enough to bump 1.042 towards 1.060.
I am boiling with my lid half off for I am not confident I can maintain a full boil with the lid fully off.
So, better I think than last time - and most probably bad grain before coupled with perhaps a too high mash temperature.
For my next brew I'll try with the lid totally off once close to a boil and measure the volume more often in the boil to try and get a feel for now much longer I may need to boil for to assure sufficient evaporation.
Does this sound sensible?
thanks
My mash pH was around 6 which as far as I understand is OK meaning the water does not need to be adjusted.
I mashed at 65C instead of 68C
But I think the biggest difference was the new grain, cracked just one week before.
The main key point for me was I was expecting a Gravity into Boil (GIB) of 1.035 and I got 1.033.
My only worry was my final Gravity of Ambient Wort (GAW) was 1.042 when I was expecting 1.060.
However, I think this can be explained by my Volume of Flame-Out being 12 litres rather than the expected 9.7 litres.
I imagine that if I had boil for longer than 90mins then the sugars would be concentrated enough to bump 1.042 towards 1.060.
I am boiling with my lid half off for I am not confident I can maintain a full boil with the lid fully off.
So, better I think than last time - and most probably bad grain before coupled with perhaps a too high mash temperature.
For my next brew I'll try with the lid totally off once close to a boil and measure the volume more often in the boil to try and get a feel for now much longer I may need to boil for to assure sufficient evaporation.
Does this sound sensible?
thanks
Post #19 made 11 years ago
drtablet, boiling with the lid 1/2 off IMHO would not be the culprit. I must have missed b4 but electric or gas fired? I'm gas fired and as long as my regulator is making a nice flame ( a nice flower ) then I have no problem with a rolling boil.
I think its more the heat source.
J
I think its more the heat source.
J
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Post #20 made 11 years ago
Boiling with a lid half on may not be your best method drtablet.
There are many things happening during a boil as well as evaporation. It is possible that some of the DMS that is being driven off in the "steam" could condense on that lid and drip back in to your wort (who knows).
The best advice I have read for increasing boil vigour is to float a stainless steel bowl in your wort. This effectively reduces the surface area that evaporation can occur, and therefore makes the areas that are available for evaporation occur at an increased rate.
Hope that makes sense!
If without the lid is not good enough, definitely try the bowl method.
There are many things happening during a boil as well as evaporation. It is possible that some of the DMS that is being driven off in the "steam" could condense on that lid and drip back in to your wort (who knows).
The best advice I have read for increasing boil vigour is to float a stainless steel bowl in your wort. This effectively reduces the surface area that evaporation can occur, and therefore makes the areas that are available for evaporation occur at an increased rate.
Hope that makes sense!
If without the lid is not good enough, definitely try the bowl method.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #21 made 11 years ago
[This post started some time ago but not submitted. Sorry for the repetition of some points above Joe and mally.]
Sorry drT, I never had a chance to look at your BIABacus file above the other night. You've done a really nice job there.
Just in Section D, no need to re-type the hop name and time on the right. Only thing you need to type on the right is anything that is different eg AA%.
Always boil with the lid off. Half-on usually just results in the stuff you are trying to boil off dripping back into the pot. If your boil vigour is low, either float a stainless steel bowl on the surface of the wort or get a larger heat source, smaller batch size.
Evaporation though does not affect efficiency. However the higher volume at the end of your boil only accounts for about half the discrepancy. What we should have asked you to do much earlier drT is take more sets of volume and gravity readings. This helps isolate the problem. I just assumed that you were using tools such as the BIABacus for some reason and would know that in the early days, especially if you are experiencing a problem, yo need to take a few volume and gravity sets.
(Computer is dying so I'll try and post this now and add to it afterwards.)
Sorry drT, I never had a chance to look at your BIABacus file above the other night. You've done a really nice job there
.Just in Section D, no need to re-type the hop name and time on the right. Only thing you need to type on the right is anything that is different eg AA%.
Always boil with the lid off. Half-on usually just results in the stuff you are trying to boil off dripping back into the pot. If your boil vigour is low, either float a stainless steel bowl on the surface of the wort or get a larger heat source, smaller batch size.
Evaporation though does not affect efficiency. However the higher volume at the end of your boil only accounts for about half the discrepancy. What we should have asked you to do much earlier drT is take more sets of volume and gravity readings. This helps isolate the problem. I just assumed that you were using tools such as the BIABacus for some reason and would know that in the early days, especially if you are experiencing a problem, yo need to take a few volume and gravity sets.
(Computer is dying so I'll try and post this now and add to it afterwards.)
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Post #22 made 11 years ago
Sorry drT, finally got back...
Okay, when you are having an efficiency problem, it's important to take a few volume and gravity reading sets. On the next brew, take the following measurements and record them in your BIABacus file...
1. Volume into Boil
2. Gravity into Boil (cool sample first and return to boil)
3. Gravity at Flame-Out (cool sample first and keep covered so you can add it to fermentor.)
4. Volume into Fermentor (after adding back the above). Your brews are small so consider weighing the empty fermentor and then when it is full.
5. Kettle to Fermentor Loss - pour it into a measuring jug or, again, use scales.
6. Original Gravity - acts as double check on the Gravity at Flame-Out. Take sample after aeration so it is well-mixed and keep it sanitary so you can return it to the fermentor.
Doing the above allows three sets of volume and gravity measurements that can be used to double-check your measurements.
A gravity reading without a volume reading can't give us much info so go for the above measurements. If your Volume of Ambient Wort was high in the other brews as well, then this will definitely explain a significant part of the low OG problem.
Good luck on the next one
.
Okay, when you are having an efficiency problem, it's important to take a few volume and gravity reading sets. On the next brew, take the following measurements and record them in your BIABacus file...
1. Volume into Boil
2. Gravity into Boil (cool sample first and return to boil)
3. Gravity at Flame-Out (cool sample first and keep covered so you can add it to fermentor.)
4. Volume into Fermentor (after adding back the above). Your brews are small so consider weighing the empty fermentor and then when it is full.
5. Kettle to Fermentor Loss - pour it into a measuring jug or, again, use scales.
6. Original Gravity - acts as double check on the Gravity at Flame-Out. Take sample after aeration so it is well-mixed and keep it sanitary so you can return it to the fermentor.
Doing the above allows three sets of volume and gravity measurements that can be used to double-check your measurements.
A gravity reading without a volume reading can't give us much info so go for the above measurements. If your Volume of Ambient Wort was high in the other brews as well, then this will definitely explain a significant part of the low OG problem.
Good luck on the next one
.If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
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- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia
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Post #23 made 11 years ago
Gents thanks for all your comments.
I'll try and answer them all.
jhough - Far from me thinking you're a smart-ass. I appreciate your time in commenting on my post. I'm doing miniBIAB at the moment to try and narrow down a beer I really like. So 8-10 litres of booze in the bottle at the end is ideal for this. Sadly my local shop does not have a mill. They only sell small (max 4kg) bags of cracked grain. If you order more its cracked just before pickup from their franchise head quarters.
I'm using a natural gas burner on my normal kitchen stove top. Its got a an additional BBQ style burner that is 23x4.5cm so should be enough for this.
mally - for sure I'll be boiling with the lid off next time and If i can't get a good rolling boil I'll reduce the evaporation surface area with a stainless-steel dish. Great idea.
PistolPatch.
For my last brew I did a new BIABacuss (attached) that has much more detail than my last one. I measured Volume and Gravity at more places. Though not as comprehensively as your recent post suggests.
I have been measuring volume using a stainles-steel ruler placed in the pot seeing how deep in cm and then comparing to a chart I made when filling via graduated jug.
Certainly for my next brew I'll try and gather a much data as you recommend as possible. Thanks for your feed back its really appreciated.
I'm also going to see if I can weigh this time (using the "pet" feature on the wii). 1litre of water certainly should weigh 1 kg.
Even at my altitude of 300m
I hope I have answered everyones questions. Please let me know if I've not.
interestingly, on my initial submitted BIABacuss where I have a very bad yield I ended up with the correct volume into fermentor.
thanks
Craig
I'll try and answer them all.
jhough - Far from me thinking you're a smart-ass. I appreciate your time in commenting on my post. I'm doing miniBIAB at the moment to try and narrow down a beer I really like. So 8-10 litres of booze in the bottle at the end is ideal for this. Sadly my local shop does not have a mill. They only sell small (max 4kg) bags of cracked grain. If you order more its cracked just before pickup from their franchise head quarters.
I'm using a natural gas burner on my normal kitchen stove top. Its got a an additional BBQ style burner that is 23x4.5cm so should be enough for this.
mally - for sure I'll be boiling with the lid off next time and If i can't get a good rolling boil I'll reduce the evaporation surface area with a stainless-steel dish. Great idea.
PistolPatch.
For my last brew I did a new BIABacuss (attached) that has much more detail than my last one. I measured Volume and Gravity at more places. Though not as comprehensively as your recent post suggests.
I have been measuring volume using a stainles-steel ruler placed in the pot seeing how deep in cm and then comparing to a chart I made when filling via graduated jug.
Certainly for my next brew I'll try and gather a much data as you recommend as possible. Thanks for your feed back its really appreciated.
I'm also going to see if I can weigh this time (using the "pet" feature on the wii). 1litre of water certainly should weigh 1 kg.
Even at my altitude of 300m
I hope I have answered everyones questions. Please let me know if I've not.
interestingly, on my initial submitted BIABacuss where I have a very bad yield I ended up with the correct volume into fermentor.
thanks
Craig
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Post #24 made 11 years ago
Craig, If the LHBS does't have a mill then I can definitely understand buying one. 
Yup thats a no brainer! Just thought that they all had one....Sorry.
J
Yup thats a no brainer! Just thought that they all had one....Sorry.J
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Post #25 made 11 years ago
PistolPatch to follow up on your numbered points from my brew this morning..
1. Volume into Boil 16l (est. 16.61)
2. Gravity into Boil 1.026 (est. 1.031)
3. Gravity at Flame-Out 1.036
4. Volume into Fermentor 9.0 (est. 8.0)
5. Kettle to Fermentor Loss 1.8 (est. 1.33)
6. Original Gravity 1.038 (est.1.053)
I added this last one for I think this shows a real issue.
7. Volume at Flame-Out 12.5 (est.9.71)
I have the BIABacuss if you'd like to see it?
I did the boil this time with the lid fully off - and the addition of a stainless-steel dish.
Although I did have the lid on in order to bring it to the boil from 65-100C
I must be doing something fundamentally wrong to have such a big volume and low evaporation loss during the boil.
I have 2.8 litres more after the boil than I should have.
Considering my Gravity into Boil is 1.026 and not offensively far off the est. 1.031 can we conclude that my issue is related to the lack of evaporation during the boil?
NOTE: My original issue that I posted for had a poor gravity into boil which I think was fixed by having fresher grains. So I think my issue was really in two parts. a) poor/old grains = low yield generally as seen in low Gravity into Boil b) low evaporation rate during boil leading to wort not getting concentrated, therefore lower OG than it should be.
For my next brew I'll see if I can bring to the boil with the lid off from mash temp to boiling…I also may need to boil for 120mins instead of 90 to give more time for evaporation.
thanks
1. Volume into Boil 16l (est. 16.61)
2. Gravity into Boil 1.026 (est. 1.031)
3. Gravity at Flame-Out 1.036
4. Volume into Fermentor 9.0 (est. 8.0)
5. Kettle to Fermentor Loss 1.8 (est. 1.33)
6. Original Gravity 1.038 (est.1.053)
I added this last one for I think this shows a real issue.
7. Volume at Flame-Out 12.5 (est.9.71)
I have the BIABacuss if you'd like to see it?
I did the boil this time with the lid fully off - and the addition of a stainless-steel dish.
Although I did have the lid on in order to bring it to the boil from 65-100C
I must be doing something fundamentally wrong to have such a big volume and low evaporation loss during the boil.
I have 2.8 litres more after the boil than I should have.
Considering my Gravity into Boil is 1.026 and not offensively far off the est. 1.031 can we conclude that my issue is related to the lack of evaporation during the boil?
NOTE: My original issue that I posted for had a poor gravity into boil which I think was fixed by having fresher grains. So I think my issue was really in two parts. a) poor/old grains = low yield generally as seen in low Gravity into Boil b) low evaporation rate during boil leading to wort not getting concentrated, therefore lower OG than it should be.
For my next brew I'll see if I can bring to the boil with the lid off from mash temp to boiling…I also may need to boil for 120mins instead of 90 to give more time for evaporation.
thanks
