Hello all,
Some friends and I are going to brew a barleywine this Saturday. The highest gravity I've brewed without extract in the past is 1.072 getting around 65% mash efficiency. For this barleywine I'm planning to use 11-12kg of grist. I just read about doing a double mash, so basically I'd use 6kg in the fist mash, then 6 kg in the second mash in the same liquor. Have any of you done this? Is this called something else that I missed (I couldn't find any threads on this, but I assume I just missed them)?
Here is what I was thinking process wise:
Mash 1 (5.5-6kg) for 30 minutes at 145F - raise bag and heat to strike temp, let bag drain in a separate bucket with colander - add back wort to mash after draining is complete
Mash 2 (5.5-6kg) for 60 minutes at 149F
Mashout at 168F - raise bag to drain above kettle
I'm hoping to end up around 1.100, but I'm not sure what to assume for efficiency and if I have my mash times correct - was debating between 2 45 minute mashes as well. The reason I'm using 2 separate mash temps is that I'm using WLP002 and want to ensure decent attenuation, thus the 145 initial mash (learned this on the Firestone Walker CYBI podcasts). I was planning on a step mash otherwise that I've used with this yeast before (145 for 55 minutes, raise to 155 and finish a 90 minute mash).
Any thoughts on this? Sounds like a fun way to brew a barleywine, I was hoping to not use extract just because I don't like to accept that BIAB has limitations.
Thanks for any input/feedback!
Post #2 made 11 years ago
Good Day, I have tryed this process, and found the maximum Gravity with double Mashing to be 1.106sg.
I then tried two next to next mashes, Found they only got to 1.10X.
Then, I took both mashes as ONE, added the hops and Boiled off to 1.178sg, It was a wonderful Syrup.
I tryed Wine yeast to ferment it(after all it is barleyWINE).
I needed to dilute to 1.110 to get it going, It finished near 1.026 final gravity, very thick and tasty.
My records show the mash temp was 154F for 75minutes, so that is why I made a Syrup.
Good Luck!!
I then tried two next to next mashes, Found they only got to 1.10X.
Then, I took both mashes as ONE, added the hops and Boiled off to 1.178sg, It was a wonderful Syrup.
I tryed Wine yeast to ferment it(after all it is barleyWINE).
I needed to dilute to 1.110 to get it going, It finished near 1.026 final gravity, very thick and tasty.
My records show the mash temp was 154F for 75minutes, so that is why I made a Syrup.
Good Luck!!
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #3 made 11 years ago
Certainly sounds interesting and I'd be VERY interested to hear the results...
A couple of possible concerns/comments
1) Mashing at 145 is pretty low and 30min is pretty short. I've seen recipes that call for low mash temps (which are actually higher than 145) and recommend a longer mash time to compensate. Basically I'd err on the side of caution and extend the first mash a little bit, maybe 45min. I don't know if this is actually necessary, but the way I'd approach it is "How much $$ am I spending on this recipe? How much does 15 or 30 extra minutes cost me?" From that logic I would lengthen the mash time.
2) As for efficiency...Can't help you there. All I can say is be prepared for both over- and under-shooting your gravity. This means check pre-boil volume and gravity then dilute with water if too high or add some DME if too low. Maybe set your efficiency on the low end, but check gravity and volume no matter what.
A couple of possible concerns/comments
1) Mashing at 145 is pretty low and 30min is pretty short. I've seen recipes that call for low mash temps (which are actually higher than 145) and recommend a longer mash time to compensate. Basically I'd err on the side of caution and extend the first mash a little bit, maybe 45min. I don't know if this is actually necessary, but the way I'd approach it is "How much $$ am I spending on this recipe? How much does 15 or 30 extra minutes cost me?" From that logic I would lengthen the mash time.
2) As for efficiency...Can't help you there. All I can say is be prepared for both over- and under-shooting your gravity. This means check pre-boil volume and gravity then dilute with water if too high or add some DME if too low. Maybe set your efficiency on the low end, but check gravity and volume no matter what.
Post #4 made 11 years ago
Thanks for the reply - good to know that you've gotten this to work. Did you do 75 minutes per mash or total?joshua wrote:Good Day, I have tryed this process, and found the maximum Gravity with double Mashing to be 1.106sg.
I then tried two next to next mashes, Found they only got to 1.10X.
Then, I took both mashes as ONE, added the hops and Boiled off to 1.178sg, It was a wonderful Syrup.
I tryed Wine yeast to ferment it(after all it is barleyWINE).
I needed to dilute to 1.110 to get it going, It finished near 1.026 final gravity, very thick and tasty.
My records show the mash temp was 154F for 75minutes, so that is why I made a Syrup.
Good Luck!!
Last edited by natept on 21 Nov 2012, 01:12, edited 2 times in total.
Post #5 made 11 years ago
Good points - maybe I'll do 149 all around and do 2 45 minute mashes. I'll adjust the recipe and get grain where I'm kind of in the middle where 10 points either way I'll be happy with the OG or can adjust with water/DME if necessary with an efficiency range of 60-70%.BrickBrewHaus wrote:Certainly sounds interesting and I'd be VERY interested to hear the results...
A couple of possible concerns/comments
1) Mashing at 145 is pretty low and 30min is pretty short. I've seen recipes that call for low mash temps (which are actually higher than 145) and recommend a longer mash time to compensate. Basically I'd err on the side of caution and extend the first mash a little bit, maybe 45min. I don't know if this is actually necessary, but the way I'd approach it is "How much $$ am I spending on this recipe? How much does 15 or 30 extra minutes cost me?" From that logic I would lengthen the mash time.
2) As for efficiency...Can't help you there. All I can say is be prepared for both over- and under-shooting your gravity. This means check pre-boil volume and gravity then dilute with water if too high or add some DME if too low. Maybe set your efficiency on the low end, but check gravity and volume no matter what.
Actually, I might as well just do 2 60 minute mashes, that's how long I usually mash anyway. I thought I read that the 2nd mash didn't need to be as long though since the enzymes are already active - but if nothing else it will drive fermantability and likely efficiency.
Last edited by natept on 21 Nov 2012, 01:15, edited 2 times in total.
Post #6 made 11 years ago
Picked up the grain last night - split 24 lbs of Marris Otter and a half pound each of Medium and Extra Dark Crystal into 2 bags.
Planning to mash 1st grain bag at 148 for 60 minutes, remove bag and let drain in a bucket, heat wort up to strike temp and add 2nd grain bag at 148 for 60 minutes. I'll update this thread this weekend with the results.
At 60% efficiency I should end up at 1.069 pre boil, 65% 1.074 pre boil, and at 70% 1.080 pre boil.
Thanks
Planning to mash 1st grain bag at 148 for 60 minutes, remove bag and let drain in a bucket, heat wort up to strike temp and add 2nd grain bag at 148 for 60 minutes. I'll update this thread this weekend with the results.
At 60% efficiency I should end up at 1.069 pre boil, 65% 1.074 pre boil, and at 70% 1.080 pre boil.
Thanks
Post #7 made 11 years ago
natept,
I did the same thing as you are doing last summer. I had a big beer that I could never lift in one bag. I split the batch and all worked fine. I probably could have used both spent bags to brew a small beer but I was to lazy and the horses wanted the used grain now! The beer was used for the podcast on Basic brewing radio at the NHC. It was stupendous!
I did the same thing as you are doing last summer. I had a big beer that I could never lift in one bag. I split the batch and all worked fine. I probably could have used both spent bags to brew a small beer but I was to lazy and the horses wanted the used grain now! The beer was used for the podcast on Basic brewing radio at the NHC. It was stupendous!
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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Post #8 made 11 years ago
Well, it worked. I ended up doing 2 75 minute mashes at about 148. The only issue was the wort did not want to part from the grain after the 2nd mash. I don't normally squeeze, but even after squeezing a ton, the grain absorption was a quarter gallon higher then I normally have. As the bag was hanging above the kettle after mashout the trickle of wort was real slow, when looking in the bag you could just see the wort hanging onto the grain! I guess when it gets that thick it really doesn't want to lauter.
I ended up with 8 gallons of 1.078 wort preboil, was expecting 8.25 gallons - mash efficiency of 66% (if i extracted full volume would have been 68%). Final gravity was 1.102 with 5.25 in fermenter and a gallon of trub/wort left in kettle - this method really works! I pitched directly onto a yeast cake from a Mild kegged that morning, needed a blowoff tube 8 hours later.
I ended up with 8 gallons of 1.078 wort preboil, was expecting 8.25 gallons - mash efficiency of 66% (if i extracted full volume would have been 68%). Final gravity was 1.102 with 5.25 in fermenter and a gallon of trub/wort left in kettle - this method really works! I pitched directly onto a yeast cake from a Mild kegged that morning, needed a blowoff tube 8 hours later.
Post #9 made 11 years ago
Good work Natept!
Your going to be perfect the next time! I hope it tastes as good as it reads! Keep us up to date when you try it (next year)??
Your going to be perfect the next time! I hope it tastes as good as it reads! Keep us up to date when you try it (next year)??
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #10 made 11 years ago
Very cool. I'll certainly keep this in mind for future high gravity beers.
Post #11 made 9 years ago
I am beginning to think about my next Barleywine and figured I would do a forum search and see what others were doing. Wow! Double Mashing....never heard of it before. But I have just now gotten into BIAB from a MUCH larger system and I have a lot to learn still. My question is (more of a statement), BIABacus has no way to account for a double mash...or does it? Is this a "Seat-O'-The-Pants" brewing venture? I like what I read above (lots of old posts..maybe there is some new info out there...) and want to try it. When I first thought of doing a BIAB Barleywine, I was thinking that my VIF would be somewhere around 2 US gallons due to my kettle limitations.
As soon as I work out a recipe, I will post it so some of you experienced folks can critique it for me.
Thanks for some great insight!
As soon as I work out a recipe, I will post it so some of you experienced folks can critique it for me.
Thanks for some great insight!
OldGoat
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Post #12 made 9 years ago
No software will 'automatically' account for a 'double mash'* Old Goaty 
. In fact, all software, besides the BIABAcus, would find your scenario either almost or totally impossible to deal with.
*I've written the above without even knowing whether by 'double mash' you will use the same bag of grain double-dipped or two entirely separate mashes both using completely fresh grain. There is a lot of crap terminology out there on forums so double mash could mean anything.
If you mean the latter, technique-wise there are a lot of problems/considerations. I suggest starting a new thread called something like, "Best method of brewing a barleywine?"
Answers in that thread, way before looking at any type of "double-mashing" should look at boil time, sugars/extracts and, if you look hard enough on this site, you'll find some clecver ways of fermenting barley wines fast. (It could take hours to find that sorry but I have written on it somewhere.)
Gotta race,
PP
. In fact, all software, besides the BIABAcus, would find your scenario either almost or totally impossible to deal with.*I've written the above without even knowing whether by 'double mash' you will use the same bag of grain double-dipped or two entirely separate mashes both using completely fresh grain. There is a lot of crap terminology out there on forums so double mash could mean anything.
If you mean the latter, technique-wise there are a lot of problems/considerations. I suggest starting a new thread called something like, "Best method of brewing a barleywine?"
Answers in that thread, way before looking at any type of "double-mashing" should look at boil time, sugars/extracts and, if you look hard enough on this site, you'll find some clecver ways of fermenting barley wines fast. (It could take hours to find that sorry but I have written on it somewhere.)
Gotta race,
PP
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Post #13 made 9 years ago
OG, You may want to try Party-Gyle
.....https://byo.com/grains/item/1963-parti-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... techniques
And here is a simple Party-Gyle Calculator
........http://www.astrocaver.com/java/Parti-Gyle.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And here is a simple Party-Gyle Calculator
Last edited by joshua on 05 Jun 2015, 01:35, edited 2 times in total.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #14 made 9 years ago
PP, I will do some searching to see what I can find on the forum. Thanks for the tip. My definition of "double-mashing" meant splitting the grain bill in half and mashing them, one after the other in the same kettle...same water...and hoping to reach my target OG (haven't decided what that will be yet...might just experiment and see what happens and adjust from there).
Joshua, thanks. I think I'm going to have to read the Party-Gyle article a few times to get my head wrapped around it. I've heard of it before, but never tried it. With my kettle limitations, I'm going to be hard put to get any decent second runnings out of it...until I figure out the double-mash anyway.
I'll let you know how this turns out as soon as I get my courage up to possibly waste 21 pounds of grain! Of course, it is never a waste....it will still be beer
Joshua, thanks. I think I'm going to have to read the Party-Gyle article a few times to get my head wrapped around it. I've heard of it before, but never tried it. With my kettle limitations, I'm going to be hard put to get any decent second runnings out of it...until I figure out the double-mash anyway.
I'll let you know how this turns out as soon as I get my courage up to possibly waste 21 pounds of grain! Of course, it is never a waste....it will still be beer
OldGoat
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Post #15 made 9 years ago
In a rush sorry Goat but.... That will actually be less efficient than putting all the grain in at once assuming you can fit it. It's a bit like you want two teaspoons of sugar in your coffee. Why would you wait to add the second spoonful? You are far better off to add the two teaspoons from the start and stir. Make sense?
...
The BIABacus is the only software that will automatically lower your efficiency into kettle estimate as the water that 'sees' your grain lowers. It also will throw up warnings when you get to ridiculous levels so plan your brew in the BIABacus and don't fiddle with any auto-estimates.
...
Barleywines cannot be made by just adding more grain. Instead, sugars/extracts are added and/or the length of the boil is increased substantially so as your wort becomes more concentrated just as a chef will 'reduce' sauces etc.
...
Partigyle, simplistically, is a bit like dipping a tea bag into one cup for a minute and then another for a minute. The first cup of tea will be stronger. The second cup of tea will be easy-drinking.
PP
Thanks for the clarification GoatOldGoat wrote:...My definition of "double-mashing" meant splitting the grain bill in half and mashing them, one after the other in the same kettle...same water...
. That will actually be less efficient than putting all the grain in at once assuming you can fit it. It's a bit like you want two teaspoons of sugar in your coffee. Why would you wait to add the second spoonful? You are far better off to add the two teaspoons from the start and stir. Make sense?...
The BIABacus is the only software that will automatically lower your efficiency into kettle estimate as the water that 'sees' your grain lowers. It also will throw up warnings when you get to ridiculous levels so plan your brew in the BIABacus and don't fiddle with any auto-estimates.
...
Barleywines cannot be made by just adding more grain. Instead, sugars/extracts are added and/or the length of the boil is increased substantially so as your wort becomes more concentrated just as a chef will 'reduce' sauces etc.
...
Partigyle, simplistically, is a bit like dipping a tea bag into one cup for a minute and then another for a minute. The first cup of tea will be stronger. The second cup of tea will be easy-drinking.
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 05 Jun 2015, 21:12, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #16 made 9 years ago
PP, all the grain won't fit unless I reduce my VIF...which I am willing to do if that is the best bet for reaching my OG and actually using BIABacus correctly. Kettle is only 45L and no room to upgrade 
Thanks for the tips....I really think my best bet will be to reduce my VIF and stick to what I know (for now).
Thanks for the tips....I really think my best bet will be to reduce my VIF and stick to what I know (for now).
OldGoat
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Post #17 made 9 years ago
OG, Party-Gyle, will use the Total GrainBill, for the Mash.
Then use just the SWN as you lower the VIF to fit the Mash Kettle size.
Then you can Pull the bag at the End of a mash time, let it sit until you finish the Boil, and drain the kettle.
Then use Another SWN in the Second Batch.
AS PP said above, the First Batch will have a High O.G., and the Second batch will have a lower/normal O.G.
You can then Mix the Two batches to fill your Fermenter for a Barley wine, and use the remaining Volume for a "Session" beer(1.030 to 1.035 S.G.)
Then use just the SWN as you lower the VIF to fit the Mash Kettle size.
Then you can Pull the bag at the End of a mash time, let it sit until you finish the Boil, and drain the kettle.
Then use Another SWN in the Second Batch.
AS PP said above, the First Batch will have a High O.G., and the Second batch will have a lower/normal O.G.
You can then Mix the Two batches to fill your Fermenter for a Barley wine, and use the remaining Volume for a "Session" beer(1.030 to 1.035 S.G.)
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Post #18 made 9 years ago
Joshua, I am going to play with the Party Gyle calculator and get familiar with it. I will try this technique....
By the way, in my previous post I stated that my kettle is 45L. I made the cardinal mistake and didn't delete the numbers in what I thought was a blank spreadsheet. I had been playing around with the BIABacus in the event I decided to upgrade my kettle (not happening anytime soon) and was just punching numbers in to see what I would need. With all that said, my kettle is only 33L (makes quite a difference in my VIF).
Will keep you posted.
By the way, in my previous post I stated that my kettle is 45L. I made the cardinal mistake and didn't delete the numbers in what I thought was a blank spreadsheet. I had been playing around with the BIABacus in the event I decided to upgrade my kettle (not happening anytime soon) and was just punching numbers in to see what I would need. With all that said, my kettle is only 33L (makes quite a difference in my VIF).
Will keep you posted.
OldGoat
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Post #19 made 9 years ago
If all the grains won't fit then you are definitely asking far too much from your kettle. (Depending on BIABacus version, it will throw up several warnings in that scenario.) Start with what yur kettle will handle do an extended boil time and look at sugars to boost the OG.
The only advantage of parti-gyle is that it means you won't waste any sugars but then you have to do a double brew day etc. I wouldn't consider it unless you have two sets of equipment and have a few high gravity batches under your belt.
Parti-gyle calculators are very primitive and make some quite incorrect assumptions. A partigyle scenario is far too complex for existing calculators/software besides the BIABacus. Joshua wouldn't have known that the BIABacus can handle partigyle really well as I've never written anything on it and it is not a priority to do that now. Also, understanding what is written would take a sound comprehension of how the BIABacus works. The maths of parti-gyle are complex. Either understand them completely or just have a crack at it when you have enough equipment and see what happens.
PP
The only advantage of parti-gyle is that it means you won't waste any sugars but then you have to do a double brew day etc. I wouldn't consider it unless you have two sets of equipment and have a few high gravity batches under your belt.
Parti-gyle calculators are very primitive and make some quite incorrect assumptions. A partigyle scenario is far too complex for existing calculators/software besides the BIABacus. Joshua wouldn't have known that the BIABacus can handle partigyle really well as I've never written anything on it and it is not a priority to do that now. Also, understanding what is written would take a sound comprehension of how the BIABacus works. The maths of parti-gyle are complex. Either understand them completely or just have a crack at it when you have enough equipment and see what happens.
PP
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