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Mash and Boil Times, do they need to be changed?

Post #1 made 11 years ago
by Rigging65
Hey there,

I'm entering a new recipe for conversion into BIABacus. A strange as it may be, this is the first recipe I've converted that doesn't call for 90 min sparge and 90 min boil. My understanding is that 90/90 is pretty much an unofficial standard for BIAB, for various, well thought out reasons.

My question is this: the recipe is for a Witbier, it calls for 60/60. It's a 11 gallon-ish VAW that I'm converting to a 6 gallon-ish VAW. Should I enter my times in BIABacus as 60/60, or 90/90?

Input? Reasons?

Thanks!!
________________________________
Life's about choices...

Post #2 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi rigging,

A lot of brewers / recipes from other sites will not be aware of the 90/90 recommendation so it won't be uncommon to find all-grain recipes (of any sort) with 60/60. It's best to change 60/60 to 90/90 when you come across it for the following reasons...

Mash: In single vessel brewing (proper BIAB), the mash and sparge occur at the same time. In three-vessel all-grain vessel, they'll do at least a 60 minute mash followed by quite some time in sparging. Only doing a 60 minute simultaneous mash/sparge means that you are not allowing enough time for the sugars to leach completely out of the grain. So, to make sure you are getting the great kettle efficiency that BIAB gives, go the 90 minutes and preferable a mash-out as well.

Boil: All-grain is different from extract brewing. Plenty of all-grainers only do a 60 minute boil and many of us probably couldn't tell the difference between a beer made with a 60 minute or a 90 minute boil. With some waters though, a 60 minute boil is not long enough and you'll get clarity issues. More important reasons for why 90 minutes is best practice though are given in this article from bavarianbrewerytech.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 19 Aug 2014, 17:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #3 made 11 years ago
by Rigging65
Great, thanks for the info!
Since I'm converting the recipe, and it's 60/60, is there anything that needs to be done in BIABacus to reflect that?...or is entering 90/90 for my mash and boil sufficient?

Thanks again for the info.
________________________________
Life's about choices...

Post #4 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
One thing I should have mentioned rigging is not to be scared of the BIABacus. Sure, with so many things on one sheet it looks daunting but the main things you want to educate yourself on are Sections B, C, D and K. If you learn those, you'll be way ahead of most brewers. So, save a file under a name and then play with it.

For example, if you change to 90/90, here is what will change...

1. We have not written a formula yet that estimates the difference in efficiency between a 60 and 90 minute mash so changing the minutes there won't change anything. You actually doing the 90 minute mash will mean that you are very unlikely to get caught short though. The last thing you want to do in brewing is get caught short on sugar.

2. Increasing boil time from 60 to 90 will mean you will have to start with a little more water as you will have 1.5 times the evaporation of a 60 minute boil. Because you are using a little more water, this means you are 'washing' your grains with more water and therefore they will be cleaner. You will be washing more sugar out of the grist and therefore you will see a small rise in your efficiency estimates in Section P.

You don't have to be worried about hops as long as you understand that a 60 minute addition means that you boil that hop for 60 minutes. (Sometimes new brewers think a 60 minute addition means you add the hop 60 mins after the boil starts.)

Make sense?
PP
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Post #6 made 11 years ago
by Rigging65
Ok, re-reading this response from PP, I do have one clarification question: you mention there is no formula for different mashing times, but then you mention the 1.5 times evaporation rate due to the increase boil time. Does BIABacus figure the longer boil time, thus the higher evaporation rate, and add water to my total? Or do I need to figure it myself and add water that doesn't appear on the sheet?

As you didn't specifically say the sheet DOESN'T calculate for the increased boil time, I assumed it did...but you know how that goes!

Please advise. Thanks!
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Life's about choices...

Post #7 made 11 years ago
by bundy
Fear not , BIABacus calculates any extra water needed for your longer boil time. So it's all done for you.

(If you play with the boil times you will see the water quantities change as you adjust)
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Post #9 made 11 years ago
by celeryness
I hope this is appropriate to add to this thread on the subject of boil times, but this also might have a bearing on the BIABacus as well. I've not seen a mention so far to altitude in terms of calculation of boil times, and not wanting to be too anal, but to a certain extent (and depending on how high you are) you might want to extend boil times even more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_cooking, and http://www.chemistry.co.nz/cooking_altitudes.htm for example) or increase pressure when boiling.

I'm English (for my sins) but I have lived in Guatemala for a number of years and I live at 1,500m above sea level. My old and trusted analog thermometer reads 96 degrees C when boiling water, and so I know that this is affecting cooking times. Things should stay longer in the oven (I make bread), or the pot (I also make curries), or the pressure should be increased to compensate for the lessening in air pressure at higher altitude.

Something one might consider anyway, when thinking about "the boil". I'm adding a little extra time myself, as I'm a stirrer, and pressure cooking in a big kettle might not be feasible, practical or desirable (sticky black residue is a pain). No pleasure for me in bringing up yet another variable for the artisan brewer, but as a stirrer, I had to stick my proverbial oar in.

Post #10 made 11 years ago
by bundy
Hi Celeryness,

Good observation, but my understanding (and I'm sure PP or others will correct me if wrong) is the only real difference you need to worry about at Altitude is your Evaporation rate. As long is you are boiling for 90 mins "a boil is a boil" no matter what the Altitude. In Brewing it will have the same desired effect, which is to remove unwanted DMS.

There are lots of things that can affect Evaporation Rate and Altitude is certainly one of them (As is humidity, Wind, size of your Kettle, Size of your Burner etc etc)

So the thing that may require tweaking in BIABacus is the evaporation rate or Litres per hour that evaporate. After a few brews and presuming you have taken good measurements of your process you may start to see a trend in your Evap rate.

Once you do this can be adjusted if necessary in Section X of the BIABacus.

BIABacus will then adjust your initial Volumes in Section K
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Post #11 made 11 years ago
by celeryness
@bundy

Thanks very much for chipping in on that. Like I said above - its something that one might want to consider, nothing more. I expect if you were brewing in Cusco in Peru (3,400m), another bigger concern might be the lack of oxygen, rather than just an extended boil.

My take on this is that if it takes longer to get a hard-boiled egg at altitude, ergo I'm going to boil a bit longer to get the desired effect on my beer. In that sense it leaves me wondering if "a boil" really is "a boil". Also, that article that PistolPatch links to above talks about 5 main reasons to boil, and for me that means I need to do a little more boil work to achieve all of the desired effects (not just DMS reduction). Having said all that, I'm sharing a personal feeling based on what I've read, and what I've experienced myself, not trying to bang a drum or anything. I'm happy to be enlightened if I'm barking up the wrong tree as well.

Evaporation rate is also something to look at, and I'll experiment with that and try to factor that in when I'm using the BIABacus, thanks for pointing that out.

Post #12 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
I really enjoyed reading your posts above celeryness (and bundy's) :peace:,

For me personally, I find writing on numbers a real Catch22. It's always a juggle. There are so many crap numbers out there that we need to really get brewers interested in them and then get them, simultaneously, understanding how good/useful and bad/misleading they can be. By the same token, we don't need to those brewers worried or obsessed by them :smoke:.

Very few brewers reach the above level. Anyway...

I loved your 'personal feeling' comment above celery. A lot of brewing is about art not just science and I, for one, listen very carefully to comments like yours. Trust your gut!

...

Just re-reading the thread, yep, altitude has been considered and is has been filed in a big sql database but does not affect the spreadsheet today and it probably shouldn't...

...

I think this site is the best you will ever at teaching numbers. Is everyone agreed on that?

The next step though is realising when and where those numbers are significant. For example, if brewing at 1,500m versus 0 m, was it the water or the altitude that made a difference?

See what I mean?

:whistle:
PP
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Post #13 made 11 years ago
by celeryness
@PP

I do see what you mean indeed sir. I've had my two penneth worth now on this anyway - so I'll zip it - this is a good thread and my intention wasn't to distract too much from the initial conversation about boil times.

Post #14 made 11 years ago
by jhough
celeryness , I agree with bundy and PP . I personally would wait to be worried until I had the numbers from at least a couple of brews to do a comparision with. I do understand the science behind you question though ,I just think sometimes we tend to overthink things. Just my 2 cents.
j
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Post #15 made 11 years ago
by celeryness
@PistolPatch
Thanks for the private message mate. I felt that after my initial post and further response I was pushing this thread too far away from its original discussion on general boil time considerations, and I was just happy to move on.

I also think I made a mistake in mentioning the BIABacus in this context – which I think was due to my greenness with it. That little field that says "boil time", and the sections that @bundy mentioned above (thanks again), are all I need if I want to play around with that. And while we're on the subject – what a truly awesome job on the BIABacus – I'm bowled over now I'm learning just how much it covers and how to use it. Excellent work by all those involved.
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