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Hobgoblin Clone - Brew Swap (UK)

Post #1 made 10 years ago
by mally
Based on a thread starting here.
Is there any interest in collaborating on cloning Wychwood Brewery's "HOBGOBLIN". With the possibility of then swapping the beers amongst participants?
hobgoblin.jpg
There are possibly 4 participants at the moment;

Mally (Malc)
Yettiman (Tony)
Yeasty (Andy)
Adman1966 (Adam)

The 4 listed are currently UK based, so maybe would be better to keep this within the UK? Thoughts?

some things may need to be decided beforehand; Recipe, when, condition at home or at recipients etc. Do we clone the bottle or cask version? Any other thoughts on this?

I thought I would start the ball rolling with a recipe report from my BIABAcus that is based on ORFY'S HOBGOBLIN II (see below);

"Brewer: Mally
Style: English Ale
Source Recipe Link:
ABV: 5% (assumes any priming sugar used is diluted.)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.052
IBU's (Tinseth): 23
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 0.45
Colour: 31.9 EBC = 16.2 SRM

Kettle Efficiency (as in EIB and EAW): 82.4 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 74.2 %

Mash: 90 mins at 68 C = 154.4 F, Boil: 60 min, Ferment: 10 days at 20 C = 68 F

Total Water Needed (TWN): 33.59 L = 8.87 G
Volume into Boil (VIB): 31.41 L = 8.3 G @ 1.044
Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW): 25.53 L = 6.74 G @ 1.052
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 23 L = 6.08 G @ 1.052
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 21.3 L = 5.63 G @ 1.013 assuming apparent attenuation of 75 %

88.9% pale malt (6 EBC = 3 SRM) 4800 grams = 10.58 pounds
4.6% Crystal Malt (120 EBC = 60.9 SRM) 250 grams = 0.55 pounds
3.7% Carapils (4 EBC = 2 SRM) 200 grams = 0.44 pounds
2.8% Chocolate Malt (900 EBC = 456.9 SRM) 150 grams = 0.33 pounds

6.7 IBU Styrian Golding Flowers (5%AA) 15 grams = 0.53 ounces at 60 mins (First Wort Hopped)
6 IBU Fuggles Flowers (4.5%AA) 15 grams = 0.53 ounces at 60 mins (First Wort Hopped)
5.1 IBU Styrian Golding Flowers (5%AA) 15 grams = 0.53 ounces at 30 mins
4.6 IBU Fuggles Flowers (4.5%AA) 15 grams = 0.53 ounces at 30 mins
0.3 IBU Styrian Golding Flowers (5%AA) 15 grams = 0.53 ounces at 1 mins
0.3 IBU Fuggles Flowers (4.5%AA) 15 grams = 0.53 ounces at 1 mins

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full-Volume Mash) for 90 mins at 68 C = 154.4 F

Mashout for for 10 mins at 78 C = 172.4 F

1/2 Tab Whirfloc (Boil) 5 Mins - Clarity

Hopsock Used: Y (Pulled 10 mins after boil end.)
Whirlpool: 20 mins after boil end.
Chilling Method: cube (Employed 0 mins after boil end.)

Fermentation: Nottingham for 10 days at 20 C = 68 F

Secondary Used: y, Crash-Chilled: n , Filtered: n ,Req. Volumes of CO2: 2"

Lets see if we can come to an agreement and if there is anybody else interested.
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Last edited by mally on 25 Feb 2014, 17:55, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #2 made 10 years ago
by Yettiman
I will post my recipe later, but just to throw my thoughts into the ring,

Are we looking to (as a group) one recipe at a time or throw all the recipes out there and discuss.

I like the idea of conditioning at each other's houses, I only bottle condition and have had great results with clarity, but I do leave the bottles alone to settle for a min of 6 weeks, so the idea of then posting these to be shaken up by our loving postal service, would leave me disappointed.

I have only tried the bottle version, but am happy to follow the groups decision as to which is the better tasting beer.

I like a rich malty complex beer, but am guessing that both will fall into that category.

Are we looking at micro brews (1 gal taster batches)? As these will allow us to process more tweaks

Are we looking to assign (or get volunteers from within the group) to test multiple modifications simultaneously to speed things up. Maybe with each of us sending a bottle from each brew (that we think is close) to the others.

A great thread Malty, this is going to be fun
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Post #3 made 10 years ago
by Adman1966
Hi fellas
I actually brewed something very similar to the above recipe but used Bobek instead of Styrian Goldings and GV12 instead of Nottingham.
I will bottle some to send out, and get the ball rolling once it is in the bottle. I agree with conditioning after posting to allow settling time. This means I should be able to post it in a couple of weeks. We will sort out the address logistics nearer the time.
I think the bottled version will be more accessible to most of us so we should aim at that?
Also are we all going to attempt exactly the same recipe at some point? This would highlight the difference that our brewing techniques make to the recipes (and force us to open 4 bottles at once) :thumbs:
You're right Yettiman, this is going to be fun!
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Post #4 made 10 years ago
by Yettiman
When we get to the stage of all brewing on the same day (to avoid conditioning differences) to the same recipe (a great idea Adman1966) which version of BIABacus should we use?

Just want to to get a head start on any retyping :)
Last edited by Yettiman on 26 Feb 2014, 17:59, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #5 made 10 years ago
by Yeasty
Lets get this baby started :argh:

I agree that bottles are the way forward. As to our own recipe or all brewing the same one needs to be decided.

If the participant numbers stay low it would be possible for everyone to send a bottle or to too everyone else, if we get a lot of takers this may become impractical. This may effect our decision on the recipe choice ( Individual or Joint).

Can I suggest we all keep throwing our ideas/thoughts into the hat till the weekend where we can then pick the bones out of them and come up with a plan/way forward.

Get looking for those recipes guys. :luck:
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #6 made 10 years ago
by mally
The BIABacus file I have from the report above is PR1.3K.
If it would be of any use I can see if the moderators will allow me to add it to this thread for all participants to download? That way there should be less faffing with the recipe.

I hadn't really thought about it until some of you have mentioned it, but we can either use it to sample brewing technique (same recipe) or proximity to clone (free reign), or maybe a mix of both?

Logistically I would lean towards free reign, as otherwise we would all have to get the same ingredients, same age of malt, AA% hops, yeast (dry/liquid, fresh/harvested).

Oh.. one other thing, I have never bottled with glass & crown caps. I have always used Coopers 500ml PET with screw caps.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #10 made 10 years ago
by Yettiman
Hi Yeasty,

Not adverse to getting a few PET bottles, any recommendations, I have only used glass before. Are Coopers the best make. I understand Tescos is as good as source as any. Any issues with long term use (greater than 3 months) any loss of carbonation compared with glass?
Last edited by Yettiman on 27 Feb 2014, 07:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #11 made 10 years ago
by mally
I have always used coopers PET for a few reasons.
didn't have a capper at the time.
brown coloured (no skunking).
but mostly because they use ox bar. Basically there is a lining inside the bottle that prevents oxygen from getting in. I have still got one bottle left of a wheat beer I brewed nearly 18 months ago, I had one of these last month, and it is still in good condition. The lining can sometimes delaminate (come away) from the wall and does not pose any problems if it does, but from the look & sound it seems to be like cellophane (if you are old enough to remember how Lucozade used to come wrapped in yellow cellophane, that is how I perceive it)!

I have never lost carbonation either (presumably the oxbar works both ways in that if oxygen can't get in, then C02 that is bigger cannot get out)?

I have also just noticed that Tesco are doing a box of 24 of them for £9.50.

The best thing about using PET bottles though is based on a quote I read somewhere - that they had gained enough "environmental green points" to spit roast a baby seal! :lol:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #12 made 10 years ago
by Yeasty
mally wrote: that they had gained enough "environmental green points" to spit roast a baby seal! :lol:
:o :argh: I'll leave that to those crazy Canadians. :blush:

Here is a link from last year on Jims

Hobgoblin

Race to provide a link to the podcast :shoot:

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 27 Feb 2014, 04:35, edited 1 time in total.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #14 made 10 years ago
by Yeasty
Hobgoblin was discussed in this thread Here

It relates to the Jamil podcast and there is some interesting discussion with regards to volumes IBU's and other recipe problems. I'll PM Homemade and see how it went.

:salute:

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 28 Feb 2014, 03:21, edited 1 time in total.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #15 made 10 years ago
by mally
Good idea Yeasty. I listened to the podcast and then went through the exact same scenario that Homemade did!

Most interesting thing about the podcast was that the recipe seemed to be perfect but the slight differences were purely due to yeast.

Is it too early in the discussions to ask what yeast people are planning on using?
I have US04, Notty, or can step up some St Austell yeast from "poper job". I guess English ale yeasts are the way to go.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #16 made 10 years ago
by Yeasty
Never too early to discuss yeast Mally. The podcast was interesting and I think I might enter the Headbrewers volumes/% and then scale it :idiot:
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #17 made 10 years ago
by Homemade
Hi Guys.

Yeasty PM me and asked me to contribute by letting you all know how we got on with our Hobgoblin clone.

Short answer is 'with time' it has mellowed into a very decent brew. I have attached our file, not sure if this is helpful, essentially it is the 'can you brew it' recipe. The only differences (I think) are amount of hops used due to differing AA%.

This was probably only our 2nd all grain brew, it was brewed on my shiny new Braumeister, and although that machine is billed as set and forget, it still takes some getting used to. we have about 6 more brews under our belt and are more proficient now, and some changes to our technique has improved for the better, EG: we now always mash for 90mins and seem to hit gravity targets much closer now.

As you can see from the file, we did not reach our GIB and the mistake we made was we did not reduce our hop quantity, therefore we ended up over hopping it somewhat. However this has mellowed alot since then (we tried one only last weekend). After reading your thread today I popped out to purchase a bottle of the real mccoy and intend to taste ours against it tomorrow night and I will let you know how close it is now.

Our brew was also very cloudy, I am not sure why that was as everything else we have done, with essentially the same technique, has come out much clearer, however the cloudyness has also cleared with age.

I decided to keep a few bottles back due to the over hopping (to see if it mellows) and also because the guys at CYBI talk about the problems associated with trying to taste a fresh homebrew against an imported brew that is likely to be many months old.

We used the Burton Ale yeast recommended in the podcast. I was not up on yeast pitching rates at that time and I am sure we underpitched therefore I am not sure how much of an affect that might of had.

Apart from it being too hoppy when fresh, we were very happy with it and intend to brew it again soon, this time with our current level of knowledge we are hoping for a much improved version.

BTW I notice the logo shown in the first post says it is a dark cask ale, obviously we dont get the cask version over here but the bottle label here says it is a Ruby Ale, as does the brewer in the podcast.
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Post #19 made 10 years ago
by Yettiman
Thanks Homemade for the post and file, they make great reading.

Not sure what yeast I have in stock (will only be dried ones, I know that) but can order in from Malt Miller if needed.

I definitely, have a huge selections of hops (including all those in your recipe) but only have Maris Otter, so might need a little warning before our first brew.

Thanks again
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Post #20 made 10 years ago
by Adman1966
I've now listened to the podcast and read the recipe used by Homemade. (Nice work Homemade and thanks for the info).
It's quite a bit different to the recipe I used last weekend but that's not really surprising when you factor in different peoples tastes and experiences of brewing. I guess if Wychwoods brewer tells you the ingredients, that's what you should use!
When it comes to tinkering with the recipe based on the beer produced I confess at this stage that I have very limited experience of knowing what effect these changes will have without rebrewing and the comparing the results. This is one aspect of this collaboration that I am looking forward to, gaining a better understanding of what does what.
On a side note, I realise that this maybe highly premature in that we haven't actually started this yet, but are there any other beers that we would also like to attempt this with? Or should we wait to see how we do with HG? I will be brewing other beers during this project so I thought this could help add some "recipes with integrity" to the forum.
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Post #21 made 10 years ago
by Yettiman
Adman,

For me, I'd rather just go with HG at the mo, will read with relish any other threads, but cannot promise to take an active role. I only get to brew 4-6 times a year, so need to pick and choose.

Have a pretty good Oatmeal stout that I am proud of, and a Speckled hen clone that has proven quite popular (good colour, poor head retention and a little too biscuity, for my taste, but that might be the Maris Otter).

Has there been any more thoughts on which version of BIABacus were are using? I just want to start the retyping ASAP, as I enter in my full Brewday checklist.
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Post #22 made 10 years ago
by Homemade
Just to let you know that I compared the two last night and i have to be honest and say the hop bitterness of our brew still overpowers the malt. The genuine article is definately more malty, I assume thats caused by our low extraction.

The colour is off too.

our brew is good to drink just not the same. :nup:

I suppose thats why its so hard to clone beers even if u do have the recipe.

I look forward to hearing how you all get on.

Goodluck

Post #23 made 10 years ago
by Yettiman
Hi Homemade,

How would you compare the two colours?

Not very good at ajusting recipes, but I am sure one of the other chaps might have a sugesstion for the lack of malt flavour.

Maybe the modified recipe can be the one we all try and compare. Might it have been a brewing difference, rather than the recipe?

Speak soon mate
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Post #24 made 10 years ago
by Homemade
I have attached a photo of the two side by side as u can see mine is still cloudy and not Ruby.

I am a novice brewer so I really do not know why it isnt as malty however I think the low extraction coupled with the fact we didnt reduce the hops to compensate would be at least part of it???

I am sure the recipe is correct according to the brewer so it would have to be brewing techniques I would welcome any comments.

Cheers
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Post #25 made 10 years ago
by mally
I am still unsure which recipe would be best at the moment. :think:
As Adam said, maybe the brewers recipe is the correct one? However, at the beginning of that podcast he also joked about not being willing to give away too much info, so who knows if he is throwing any oddballs out?
Another view, is that Jamil said their recipe it was identical apart from possibly the yeast, so maybe that is better? who knows.

Homemade - from the picture, the colours don't look too bad.
For the malty profile; how old is that brew? I have done a few bitters that change from hops to malt the older they get, just a thought.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain
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