Todd, glad to associate and actual "name" to the screen name.

Threads such as this are so useful in that it allows us to see the results of someone else's experimentation. If a process doesn't work, I can scratch that idea and move on to either come up with something better or provide the readers with yet another idea NOT to try.

I truly was hoping that your plan of placing the bag into a basket (pierced or mesh) would work well. I was envisioning a little crane that would hoist the basket/bag up, move it over, and lower it into another smaller pot in case I wanted to dunk again (as in Maxi-BIAB).

I'm thinking that, when the voile bag is suspended, the weight causes the weave to stretch slightly, allowing the wort to drain more freely while still filtering most of the grain. When the bag is supported inside a basket, the cloth does not stretch; in fact, the "pores" in the weave might actually be compressed slightly even further restricting the flow.

Since you're appearing much more active in your pursuit than I, I'll throw out an idea that I've been pondering ever since reading the thread on this site in which the brewer purchased fine stainless steel cloth with which to make a basket that would actually replace the bag completely. Maybe you can beat me to it:idea:

I would hack up a plastic pale (or metal basket if I feel up to it) that's about the size of the basket that came with your kettle probably much like what you had envisioned doing with your basket. Perhaps cut out pie slices from the bottom to give it 4-6 "spokes", then cut rectangles from the sides to match. Now I would have mostly a framework to which I could attach the stainless steel fabric. It would resemble the adapter I use to put my own coffee grounds into my Keurig coffeemaker.

It suddenly hit me that one might even try placing the voile bag into this support as an initial experiment before trying to mess with termite cloth or other SS cloth. If my theory is correct, some of the bag would buldge thru the cutouts in the bottom and sides thereby allowing the wort to pass thru more freely than it does in a much more supportive basket such as your - or even the wire ones in the links I posted.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, so it might be best to follow the advice of the hosts of our forum and just K.I.S.S. We should leave all the fanciness to the traditional all-grain guys and their large 3-vessel flat brew sculpture with the three gleaming SS kettles, all the plumbing, shiny quick-connect fittings, and, of course, the big bright lights on the controller as shown on The Electric Brewery You gotta admit, though, that there's something really stimulating to the eyes about some of those rigs.

Better go, now. Going to look at a house today (we're house-hunting) - of course, keeping in mind the placement of a temp-controlled garage/shop in which I can set up my pipe organ (my other money-pit hobby) as well as my brew station.

Thanks,
Keith

thughes wrote:Keith,
While I do like the idea of some type of basket as a supporting framework for the bag, in the end it just becomes an impediment to the flow of liquid out of the bag.

There is a thread over at Homebrewtalk.com where ScubaSteve tried all sorts of different size stainless steel mesh in order to make a basket. The biggest issue is cleaning: the grain husks stick in the holes of the mesh and it is a real bear to clean. Last I heard he was throwing in the towel and going back to using a bag (there's that K.I.S.S. thing again).

Todd,

Thanks for the link. I skimmed thru all 54 pages (over 500 posts) of Scubasteve's build. I also headed down another rabbit trail off of that one for a while. The fact that you had posted the link gave me the feeling that scubasteve's saga wasn't going to have a happy ending. He sure did go thru a lot of work. I'm wondering if his main problem was that he was trying to find a single mesh that would serve as his "bag" as well as filter out hop trub. He did end up with a nice build, so he should be able to function well with a voile bag.

Since my mother has sewn for as long as I can remember, and I'm fairly handy with material, I should concentrate my efforts on experimenting with bags instead of with stainless steel cloth/mesh. I might still play around with a cut up pail or very wide mesh basket (like what french fries are cooked in) as a bag support. It just might be that the voile is much stronger than I think it is, so it likely is that I'm simply trying to complicate matters just for a cool look.

For some reason, I don't care much for the long bags hanging; they appear to be much larger than necessary. I've wondered about enclosing a SS ring inside the top edge of my bag in lieu of a drawstring. One could attach some kind of bucket handle to this ring to lift the bag using a hoist.

I have a feeling that, for my first BIAB, I'm going to do what some have done and simply drape a sheet of voile down into and over my kettle and simply gather up the edges when it's time to lift the bag. When I get bored with that, I can dream about a better way of doing it.

Here's hoping that you find a nice house with a 20' x 20' stand-alone shed that is also equipped with water, electric, and a floor drain.

I don't think I'm going to jump onto this house. It's elegant, but it'll be well over my budget after I add the garage/shop - "if" I can get that past the Homeowner's Association's Architecture Committee. Thanks for asking.

Keith

That is a cool design. I appreciate that you're "in" to aesthetics as well. I'm really wanting this to work for you - possibly for selfish reasons. I'm hoping to do something like it. I found other guys who were placing their bags inside a steamer basket like your original on and had no complaints. On one, I think the brewer was leaving it suspended over the kettle for about 15-20 minutes.

I still want a little crane to hoist my basket/bag up, then slide over and lower it into a pot to finish draining. I've googled for several different key word combinations and can't find anything already built. The smallest hoist/trolley lifts about 1/2 ton. So, I guess I'll have to design something myself.

I hope the recirc works well with this.

Keith

Stux,

Thanks for the link. An idea similar had come to me recently. I don't want to hijack Todd's build thread, so I'll try to be brief. I was trying to consider 2 options:

1. a miniature hoist trolley resembling the one in the garage link that Joshua posted that would ride on a rail on top of my brew stand. The smallest I can find are way too big.
2. some kind of small crane/gantry that would lift using one motor along with another motor that would give sideways movement either by chain/cable or threaded rod (both technologies are found on garage door openers).

Food for thought - after I have a few BIAB brews under my belt.

I'm interested to see if Todd's fancy-patterned basket works. BTW, Todd, if you read this, what did you use to enlarge the holes? a stepped bit? As a side, what are folks using to cut holes in kettles/kegs? I see reference to the step bits, but I also see reference to the threaded punches such as what's used to cut the faucet holes in stainless steel sinks.

Thanks,
Keith

I've been experimenting with a similar "basket" system. More holes definitely increases flow. A simple fix if you're having problems though, is to toss in a pound or so of rice hulls. I used them in every batch with my 3-vessel system, and also use them with my BIAB/bucket experiments.

Cheap insurance against stuck mashes and slow runoff.

Michael

The two extract+ brews I've done were portable - done outside the garage door with a small folding table. Not very ergonomic, but probably what a great many HBers do. Even if I get really good at BIAB, make excellent beers, and have a fantastic brewstand, I don't foresee myself hauling it to festivals to show it off. Having either a basement or a 20-24ft x 32ft heated/cooled garage/shop is a priority in our house-hunting. I have too much money invested in the pipe organ project to just scrap it; besides, it's really neat to see folks' reactions to 500+ pipes in an array.

So, as you said, setting up a permanent spot for the brew station is a great idea. All kinds of "aids" can be devised. It just occured to me that one could probably modify the framework for a panel-cutting saw and mount it to the wall behind the brew station in order to be plenty of movement in both x and y axes. It's probably laziness, but I tho't it would be neat to have the crane mounted such that it could lift the fermenter up to the table for gravity-racking into the bottling bucket (or kegs). The same crane could lift the bottling bucket up to the table as well.

Did you say that you used the punch to enlarge the holes in the basket?

As I'm typing this, I see the following message from datamichael:

I've been experimenting with a similar "basket" system. More holes definitely increases flow. A simple fix if you're having problems though, is to toss in a pound or so of rice hulls. I used them in every batch with my 3-vessel system, and also use them with my BIAB/bucket experiments.

datamichael, I've read about that, but I have a question about its applicability here. Will the rice hulls automatically sink to the bottom? Since Todd is stirring his mash in addition to recirculating, wouldn't the rice get mixed up in the grain thereby allowing grain to clog the mesh? I can see how it would help in an unstirred situation such as a mash tun. How has it been working for you?

Anyway, gotta get going - about 45 minutes away to practice the organ for a wedding that I'm playing for in 2 weeks. When I get home, I'm going to try to bottle up the American Wheat beer - extract kit I brewed 2 weeks ago. The O.G. was 1.043. Yesterday (day 15) it was 1.014. There has been no bubbling for several days.

Later,
Keith

My testing has not involved stirring, so I can't speak to that. The hulls don't sink; they actually tend to float. I am recircing with a pump. They do get mixed with the grain from the recirc, as well as occasional stirring, but no problems with clogging.

Definitely not required if your runoff out of a bag, bucket, basket is meeting your expectations. I agree that "less basket, more holes" is a solution.

Hulls do work though. If you throw a pound in a normal BIAB, the bag will drain much quicker. I've also been experimenting with a stainless mesh basket - the hulls help a bunch.

I might also mention that several Braumeister owners here in the states are using rice hulls to prevent "wort volcanoes" and slow flow through the malt tube.

Michael

kzimmer0817 wrote: As I'm typing this, I see the following message from datamichael:

I've been experimenting with a similar "basket" system. More holes definitely increases flow. A simple fix if you're having problems though, is to toss in a pound or so of rice hulls. I used them in every batch with my 3-vessel system, and also use them with my BIAB/bucket experiments.

datamichael, I've read about that, but I have a question about its applicability here. Will the rice hulls automatically sink to the bottom? Since Todd is stirring his mash in addition to recirculating, wouldn't the rice get mixed up in the grain thereby allowing grain to clog the mesh? I can see how it would help in an unstirred situation such as a mash tun. How has it been working for you?

Anyway, gotta get going - about 45 minutes away to practice the organ for a wedding that I'm playing for in 2 weeks. When I get home, I'm going to try to bottle up the American Wheat beer - extract kit I brewed 2 weeks ago. The O.G. was 1.043. Yesterday (day 15) it was 1.014. There has been no bubbling for several days.

Later,
Keith

thughes wrote:The Swiss cheese modification to the basket seems to have improved the process. I can now crank up the recirculation and the temperature is staying rock-solid. No signs of draining restriction, liquid level is remaining stable now that the basket can flow better. The final test will be how well it drains when I hoist it out.

This is great news for me. Dunno exactly why, but I was pretty excited about the idea of using a basket to support the bag, and your earlier posting got me a little depressed. Glad it works much better now with the Swiss cheese modification - although, as was suggested, it would have made for a lovely lantern.

I like the idea of using the recirculation to maintain mash temps.

Thanks for posting,
Keith