First BIAB brew - Saison - with questions...

Post #1 made 9 years ago
So, it's been over 100 degrees for the past several days :cry: ...and it's constantly in the 90s otherwise...but I needed to brew. Got some new gear, and one of the taps is running low...it's time.

We started early, about 0700 (probably could've started at 0500 and done a bit better). I got the gear all set up (new single vessel RIMS, electric). Everything went pretty much like clockwork, since I'd put in a lot of time learning BIABacus and used the info to set up a pretty detailed flow sheet (did I mention this was also our first ever AG brew?). Our first run on the new gear was going to be a Saison, so sayeth the wife. Got the grain cracked the day before at my local shop, went out and got my RO yesterday as well (our water is hard and has a very high pH), so we were sitting pretty.

Got the pre-measurement stuff all handled first thing this morning. All stashed in little Tupperware, including the salts for the water and flavorings for the finish, like pretty little maids in a row!

Started up the gear and dove right in. For my first run using BIABacus, I must say I was really amazed at how accurate the predicted volumes were. I had calibrated the kettle, a quarter gallon at a time earlier in the week, and marked it all out with the bad-ass electro plating/etching method I found on here, so it was easy to keep track of where we were throughout the brew.

RIM sparging is, well, stoopid easy. Rained in the grain to our grain bag, the PID keeps the temp right on track and the circulating pump keeps the temps even throughout. With a check list running our lives, I was amazed at how much time we spent just staring at each other. It's a good thing I like my wife, 'cause we spent a lot of quality time doing nothing together today! :whistle: The recipe called for (what I thought) was a pretty low mash temp (90min @ 147*), then a 172* mash out. Like I said, pretty easy to keep up with.

Pulled the colander and let it drain into a bucket for a bit, while the temp ramped up to boil, then took our samples. Found a pretty cool multi-event timer on App Store while we were staring at each other, so I lined that up and dove into the boil. Used a hopsack for the first time...I think I'll move to a fixed mouth basket...digging into the bag with the kettle at boil was a bit toasty on the fingers!

We hit the end of the 90 min boil and transitioned to cooling. Now, I've been using an immersion chiller previously, but today was a baaaad day for that. I imagine the ground water was up around 72+* so I set up a pre-chiller using another small immersion chiller I have in series, but the Delta T wasn't on our side. Additionally, making a 5.5g VIF batch in a 15g kettle means hanging my chiller on the side of the kettle left about 20% of it out of the wort :dunno: . I tried using the smaller chiller and setting it GENTLY on the electric element, but wasn't happy with that. Anyway, after adding ice and more ice to the pre-chiller, I got us down into the mid-70s after about 1.5 hours. Not real happy about this. Now that I'm using a pump, I think we're gonna move towards a recirculating counter flow chiller and pre-chillers.

Anyway, like I said, the volumes were spot on...unfortunately, our gravity into the fermenter was really low compared to the recipe. Like 1.044 when it was supposed to be 1.062. Not sure where that came from, so I've got some things to look over and scratch my head about :scratch: ...anyone with ideas, please, feel free to chime in. But we moved smoothly into the carboy for primary, got 'er pitched and she's already bubbling a bit. The WLP565 I used says it tends to stall, so it should be left to run up in temp as it likes...hopefully that means the warmer than average pitching temp I used won't be a big deal.

Clean up maybe took a bit more time than I'm used to, but it was simple. Just ran the PBC through the RIMS at about 100* for 15min and then rinsed and ran the rinse water out through the pump, wiped it all down and left it to sit in the 104+* heat of the day to "finish" drying...didn't take long! Done, cleaned up and put away by 1330.

So, lessons learned from our first ever AG run:
1) a detailed plan, with detailed info from BIABacus, means less panic, to be sure.
2) it's hot out, sure, but we need a better, faster, less water intensive way to chill.
3) a rigid hop basket is in my future, and some aloe vera for my fingers...
4) I clearly don't have the experience to know why everything lined up properly, except for the OG. Gotta look at that one...

All in all, it was a fun day. The wort has a nice, somewhat spicy flavor and is really clear already. Hopefully it ferments well and turns into the summer beer I'm looking for! :thumbs:
Last edited by Rigging65 on 05 Aug 2014, 00:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #2 made 9 years ago
Rigging65,

Nice detailed write up. Welcome to BIAB. Before I answer a lot of questions. Look at this old page and the set up that I use too brew. Look at the "Overview" video at the bottom of the page that I did years ago. I haven't gotten around to finishing the full video. Maybe your questions will be answered there? No chill is in your future??

http://www.stempski.com/biab.php
Last edited by BobBrews on 02 Aug 2014, 20:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #3 made 9 years ago
As Bob said, "a nice detailed write-up." Here's a few things...

1. The title of your thread, "Saison," means that most people would not read it so don't be discouraged that only Bob and I have replied.

2. Whilst the detail is good, your questions are hidden. I've read al the above and know there were a few important questions but whilst writing this, I have forgotten them. Summarise your questions ;).

3. A few phrases in the above threw me eg "left about 20% out..."

4. The volume and gravity info is best dealt with by publishing your actual BIABacus file. That is always the best way.

So, I reckon do a bit of editing in your first post above. For example, changing the subject will change the title. ANd post your file.

Congrats on your first brew though ;).
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Post #4 made 9 years ago
I appreciate the feedback. I'm obviously new to this and don't quite know how it all goes together yet here on this forum.

I'm not sure why the title of the thread would decrease readership...I brewed a Saison and wrote about it. I guess I figured the questions in the write up were there, and if people wanted to answer them they would, but I appreciate the comment about summarizing the questions I want answers to. Thanks!

To clarify the "20% out" statement...due to the height of the kettle and the way the immersion chiller hangs on the the side of it (to keep it up off the heating element) only about 80% of the chiller was actually suspended in the wort...the pot was too deep (or the wort to shallow!) to cover the whole chiller, thus decreasing it's efficiency. I guess I need to brew bigger batches!

I don't have the BIABacus file on this iPad, so I'll have to post it when I get home tomorrow...If I can figure out how to do it...

So, my original questions...and some new ones...

1) why, if my volumes were so spot on throughout the process, was my gravity so low? (I'll post the file later, which should help this answer)

2) I've read a bunch about no-chill but, if I'm inclined to chill, what setup are people with warmer ground water using to get the job done?

3) is anyone using fly sparging with a RIMS and BIAB? If so, are you seeing any differences in your efficiency? If I remember correctly (without my file in front of me) my efficiencies were in he the 50-60% range and I'm wondering why??? I know, the file will help with this...

4) anyone have any experience with WLP565 (Saison)? I've read it stalls out and some guys finish with WLP001 (Chico)... Just wondering if this is a consistent issue with that yeast, or just a "might happen".

5) from my reading, 147* seems to be on the low end of a non-stepped mash...comments? Does this seem appropriate?

6) for anyone using RIMS: I used PBW in solution for a recirculating hot wash clean up, followed by a fresh water rinse. From additional reading, it sounds like my rinse cycle would have been better with hot, clean water, rather than ambient water. I ran the PBW, at recommended concentration, at 100* for 15 minutes, then pumped it out, then refilled and washed down the sides with fresh water, then pumped it out....comments?


Thanks again for helping me have so much fun!!
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Post #5 made 9 years ago
Rigging65 wrote: 1) why, if my volumes were so spot on throughout the process, was my gravity so low? (I'll post the file later, which should help this answer)

4) anyone have any experience with WLP565 (Saison)? I've read it stalls out and some guys finish with WLP001 (Chico)... Just wondering if this is a consistent issue with that yeast, or just a "might happen".

5) from my reading, 147* seems to be on the low end of a non-stepped mash...comments? Does this seem appropriate?
I will try to answer the above questions.

1. My last brew was also Belgian saison(#6 BIAB). A lot of things I learned about BIAB efficiency and gravity, mostly from this forum.
For me the most important thing to get the right gravity was stirring during the mash almost every 10-15 min. Temp. wasn't falling that fast (even with open lid avery now and then).
The procedure was.
Open the lid, stir for 30", close the lid, wrap the pot with blanket. Repeat again and again for the whole 90'.
Hit the target right on the spot with 1,058.

4. Ok about the WLP 565. I was reading a lot on different sites about this yeast and how hard it is to get things done. On some forum I found following procedure.

Prepare a container a little bigger than fermentor an put some water into it. The water level has to be above the wort level in fermetor. Then put inside some aquarium heater and set it to at least 86 DEG. Put in a water pump for circulation and get things moving. Yeah I know a lot of strange things, but it worked. It went from 1,058 to 1,005 in seven days. And don't forget to gently rotate fermentor at least once a day. This was my procedure and it worked. I made a starter. I left it in fermentor for 21 days and ended with 1,002. A lot of trub in fermetor and probably will use secondary next time.

5. That was my target temperature according to recipe. It worked. But just in case I added a little amount of table sugar, since this i very dry beer. The beer is fantastic and totaly comparable with some commercial saisons.

I am adding my BIAB file if somebody wants to try again.
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Last edited by matotato on 05 Aug 2014, 17:45, edited 1 time in total.

Post #6 made 9 years ago
Ok, so the beer went into keg today. Looks very clear while racking into the keg and has a nice spice note that I was hoping for. Racked into the keg for conditioning 12 days after pitching (got busy for a few days, so I didn't actually get to watch the FG bottom out...but there haven't been any new bubbles for days) but finished at 1.010 or maybe even a little lower, so I'm pretty happy with that...but I still don't understand why my OG was so low. :headhit:

Here's the final file...maybe someone can shed some light on it?

Can't wait to get it tapped! Smells like a great summer beer to me...! :party:
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Last edited by Rigging65 on 14 Aug 2014, 07:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #7 made 9 years ago
Rigging, before this thread goes further, please advise whether the answers matotato provided above were helpful and read by you. matotato's answer above would have taken quite some time to write but has not been replied to by you. Replying to responses like matotato, needs to be of far higher priority than asking for more answers.

It's very easy to get over-enthusiastic but make sure you slow down enough to not miss the brewers who are really trying to take care of you. matotato has done this several times for you and he has only done eight posts to date.

I have not downloaded your file but from your file comment, I think the cell protection would have been lost. Once again, slow down and absorb the information offered to you. For example, the top of PR1.3T will have a warning saying, "Always save as an .xls file".

Post #8 made 9 years ago
Again, I appreciate the responses and all the time committed by other forum members. The reason I didn't reply to the previous post earlier was that it didn't answer any direct questions, it just gave ways someone else has done it. Fair enough and, again, appreciated for what it is. There are some interesting observations, and definitely another way to "do it". I wasn't clear if the stirring mentioned was in response to the poster's previous batches with low gravity, or just the way the poster mashes in...

I'm using a constantly recirculating, constantly heat controlled mashing kettle, so I'm not sure stirring the wort would make any difference....but I can understand why agitation in a non-recirculating system might help pull sugars out into solution. Hence my choice to use a recirculating system.

I also didn't want to reply to the section about batch mixing the yeast until I found out what my FG was going to be, since I wouldn't know whether or not the yeast stalled...which it didn't. That (secondary) question was more of a "anyone ever have this experience with this yeast because I read about it?" query. Everyone gets different results, I was just wondering what experiences people had. This response was, If I read it correctly, a procedure without a history to measure against. Probably a very usable method, if needed, but if it's not needed why complicate things? Thus the query about "anyone have any experience with this yeast stalling?" If no one has had that experience, than why vary the pitching procedure?

I only wrote this whole thing up as a way to share an experience...and I only asked one question in the original post, which was simply if anyone had an idea why the OG was so much lower than anticipated. I can appreciate that posting the brew file helps with that, so I got that handled as quickly as I was able, which (granted) did take a while. The .xls file doesn't work well on my native Apple platform without $$$ software. When I tried, I lost functional control of some of the fields and others wouldn't cross populate, but it works fine as an .odf as long as you don't work "outside the lines". This is why many other people have asked for a web based application...but cost and time are certainly understandable road blocks to this! This isn't my first time around spreadsheets even more complex than BIABacus (although this IS quite an eloquent sheet). I was asked to formulate more questions directly...even though my original and only question hadn't been answered, even with supposition. Maybe that was my fault for note writing as clearly as necessary, or my fault for asking follow on questions without getting my primary question answered first. Either way, I take responsibility for complicating this post.

So, again, I appreciate the feedback, but I'm not asking more questions, I'm still asking the same, original question...which still hasn't changed... The other questions listed were at the request of responders...nor am I ignoring responses. I appreciate anything I can learn, whether there's many experiences driving the response, or just something someone else read elsewhere...

Thanks for the help thus far, and I appreciate the feedback.
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Post #10 made 9 years ago
Thanks mad-sci, those are some great things to check against!

After going through them I'm pretty comfortable I met most of them, the ones that I think may potentially influence my batch are:

7. I did not do anything to adjust my mash pH down during my brewing that day. I started with RO and built my salts from there. We have very hard water with a starting pH of 8.2 as measured by my pH meter after calibration (and confirmed by the city water report). My pH measurements were taken using the same meter, again after calibration. Is that what this is referencing to? Or is it referring to not entering the pH into the sheet, therefor not getting adjusted numbers on the sheet?

12. As I stated, I have a constant recirculating sparge working and constant temp control. Given the large amount of fluid surrounding the grains, and the large amount of wort being recirculated each minute (I think the pump yields 2gal/min), it would make sense that a lot of liquid is moving past the grain. Given the constant volume in the the kettle in BIAB, I would think it would be impossible to get "rivers" through a grain bed...or even a true grain bed, for that matter! I could certainly see this as an issue with traditional no-sparge BIAB though. Anyone have input on that?

Thanks for the info and the reference post! Great info.
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Post #11 made 9 years ago
Nuff wrote:...I think the cell protection would have been lost... "Always save as an .xls file".
Yep, the protection has been lost so careful with that rigging. Never save the BIABacus, no matter what program you are using, as anything besides an .xls file. Unfortunately, I can see a lot of formulas have gone missing from your file.

The above has nothing to do with the low gravity reading though so ignore that for now.

The pH won't be the cause of the discrepancy which is really a kettle efficiency one (see Section P) - it's just too major. On these numbers, I'd normally guess that the grain bill was incorrectly weighed but in your case, I think it is almost definitely due to the re-circulation 'avoiding' the grain. Definitely agitate/stir the grain several times on your next brew and see how that goes.

:luck:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 15 Aug 2014, 15:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #12 made 9 years ago
Looks like you understand the concepts of what might have happened. I suggest like Pat says, stir for the next batch to see if things improve.

I only say this because nothing stands out, and you seem pretty adept and methodical.

Trusting the re-circulation just because it looks adequate could be a big mistake, but you also may be correct that your system does it properly.

With all of that said, I'm with Pat on this ... stir on the next batch while documenting as well as you have been. My gut tells me you are going to solve this issue very quickly.
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