Re: The BIPs Thread

Post #3 made 3 years ago
Will there be a limit to BPI's a member can give out? They mat possibly have their value reduced if people are giving points to every post they come across. 
Some people are like slinkies. Not good for much, but bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From Canada

Re: The BIPs Thread

Post #5 made 3 years ago
That is exactly the sort of question we're chasing - thanks Lumpy :salute:. Also had a PM from a valuable member who was worried that someone might be able to "buy" credibility. I'll address both these issues somewhere below ;).

[center]Fairness, Feedback and Fun - Quality[/center]

I've been thinking on and off about this system for years. It's been quite a mental challenge to conceptualise but that is done now. The only remaining problem is to automate (code) as much of it as possible. Here's a few notes though that might help explain what we're aiming at;  they are not in any order and it's not an exhaustive list as there is a lot more to BIPs than the below...


There are members here that constantly give and ask for nothing in return. That has always worried me. Yes, I know that it is their enthusiasm that drives them however it is unfair, in my view, that they get no recognition or reward. Having a system that, whether a member wants it or not, gives recognition/reward, sits comfortably with me.

Also, those members who contribute the most (participation, expertise or financially), should be given more weight. For example, if a guest 'liked' a post, then their 'vote', should be given far less weight than a Gold member. This also helps with ensuring quality, the thing we are really all about.


Many times, someone will write a helpful or even brilliant post but acknowledging that well, in a post, can be daunting and, even, take things off-topic. Having a simple system where people can give feedback on a post without having to do an actual post ensures that the poster is not left hanging.


Whilst the above is serious, brewing, and this site, should also be dynamic and fun. So, we need some fun in this system. Before I get to this though, let's have a look at...

[center]Differentiation, Controls, Interest Rate and Quality[/center]

[left]As mentioned above, the BIPs system is not something we've suddenly made up; like many other things we've seen here or will see on the new site, it has taken years in the making; you won't find it anywhere else.[/left]

[left]Differentiation: Every single member of the site can make themselves valuable. Members who like reading here can donate dollars (we need that!), sociable members can encourage/recognise others or point them in the right direction, experienced brewers can write quality answers and, professionals can offer their expertise.[/left]

[left]Giving out BIP's for a lot of the above can be automated. Other things will be dealt with one on one. Regarding the former, let's take a quick look at...[/left]

[left]Controls / Trolls :)[/left]

[left]I won't go into this in detail however, this site, to date, has an excellent culture. The day we lose that culture is the day it has no value, so, given we'll be opening the site up to a wider group (more on that later), it's important that controls are in place.[/left]

[left]A small example of a control is, say if BIPs were awarded for giving a 'thumbs up' to a post, there will be controls in place for someone who does that without reason. I don't want to expand on that as it has cost a lot of time and thought coming up with such controls. To put it simply though, giving a thumbs up without a valid reason would result in negative BIPs.[/left]

[left]One other example of a control is if a member constantly posted low-quality comments. Instead of being rewarded for posting, they would receive a penalty. In other words, those who try to cheat the goodwill of the system will not get very far.[/left]

[left]Interest Rate[/left]

[left]Another area in which I won't go into in detail, however, as an extreme example: Imagine someone registers randomly on this site, scores BIPs for doing so but never logs in again. Obviously, after a month or so, they should be given the same "weight" as a guest.[/left]


[left]At the beginning of this post I mentioned a member being worried about being able to "buy" credibility. The answer to that is Yes and No but, in reality it is a No.[/left]

[left]Yes, you can spend money to buy BIPs. You can contribute socially and in many other ways and that will also earn you BIPs. And, it will earn you integrity and credibility for sure. However...[/left]

[left]Just because someone has a trillion BIPs, it does not necessarily mean they are an experienced brewer. The way that BIPs will be displayed will enable members to see how many BIPs have been earned by a fellow member purely from their brewing advice. This does not mean to diminish BIPs earned in other ways, it's just a nice way of, when you are looking for brewing info, finding the right advice.[/left]

[center]Fun/Reward [/center]

In the next 24/48 hours, I'll post some pics of how different members BIPs would appear but, one big worry for us is that members might take BIPs too seriously which would defeat the point of them. (And, it is going to cost a lot of time/money to program most of it so, don't hold your breath - we'll be doing everything by hand for a while.)


I think I'll have to cut myself off here now as I'm running behind now on some other things. There's probably enough above anyway to digest for now. Let me get the other things sorted and then I'll come back here with the pics and the 'Fun/Reward' side of things.


P.S. Have run out of time to check grammar, spelling etc above - hope it reads okay.
Last edited by BIABrewer on 24 Jan 2017, 19:30, edited 2 times in total.
Are you a "Goodwill Brewer?" Pay forward and Buy Some BIPs ;)

Re: The BIPs Thread

Post #7 made 3 years ago
Sorry I haven't posted the pics as promised in my last post. I've thought of a modification on "knowledge/experience" BIPs but haven't had the time yet to think or seek advice on whether it can be easily employed IT/database-wise. Might have to leave the pics for a little while. (More on this below.)
Lumpy5oh wrote:Will a member need to have BIP's in order to give BIP's?
Another good question Lumpy  :peace:

And, I'm open to ideas on this so as we at least have a starting point to run some scenarios through the database to find the right balance. Here's some notes:

1. The only way a member could become BIPless is if they became inactive over a period of time, basically not logging in.
2. Giving BIPs to another member will not reduce your own BIP balance, in fact, it will increase it.
3. The only way you can increase another member's BIP balance will be to give them a thumbs up and make a comment. [As a practice run, I've just forced it so a comment has to be made for a thumbs up to be counted]
4. Many members will never post, they just enjoy reading. Hopefully though, many will do a thumbs up and be happy to add the comment.

So, some questions that need to be considered regarding all this are:

Q1a. Should comments be forced?
Q1b. If not, what extra value should be given to a thumbs up with a comment?

Q2a. If say, a Gold Member (member with lots of BIPs) gets a thumbs up/comment, should they get more BIPs than a Draft Member or would that lead to too much inflation?
Q2b. If say, a Gold Member (member with lots of BIPs) gives a thumbs up/comment, should they get more BIPs than a Draft Member?

Q3. How will the answers above affect how simple it is to find higher quality posts or members?

Identifying quality of any sort is the main goal of BIPs. Working out how to display BIPs to do this is still something I am pondering, another reason why I'm stalling on the pics.
Two more important things need to be addressed, in case anyone is still reading :)

[center]Will Spending My BIPs Mean My 'Credibility' Goes Down?[/center]

[left]No. Let's say you had earned 1000 BIPs and decided to 'spend' 600 of them on something. Other members would see that you had 1000 BIPs however, you would only have 400 left on hand.[/left]

[center]What Can BIPs Be Spent On?[/center]

[left]We have several ideas on this, however, more are needed. I'll give one example here though.[/left]
[left]Let's say an international yeast, hop, malt or extract supplier offers a special deal. Perhaps, they will offer to pay half the cost of the next $150 you spend at your home brew shop so you save $75. Sounds great![/left]
[left]However, they would have to limit their offer as we would all want that! This is where BIPs come into play...[/left]
[left]To accept such an offer might require you to spend 2000 BIPs but, it would also be limited to the first 50 responders.[/left]
[left]Note that 2000 BIPs could be bought for $US20 - an immediate return of over 350%. This is a good example of where the offer would only initially be seen by Gold Members, then Craft, then Draft.[/left]
[left]I hope the above paints a clearer picture of BIPs.[/left]
[left]Look forward to your comments, ideas and suggestions if you managed to read all that  ;)[/left]
Last edited by Pat on 01 Feb 2017, 20:07, edited 1 time in total.
Are you a "Goodwill Brewer?" Pay forward and Buy Some BIPs ;)

Re: The BIPs Thread

Post #9 made 3 years ago
Muggy Dawson wrote:
3 years ago
I think I'm BIP'd up now!?
I purchased last night as a bit of a test to see what would happen.
Thanks for your generous donation Muggy :salute:

The process isn't automated as yet so nothing instantly happens. Your donation however will get you into the Gold Members group and I'll add you there after finishing this post.

Once I've done that, you'll see an additional forum at the bottom of the Index page. At time of writing though, you will still see this 'green' skin as we still need to modify some more files that drive the Gold Skin.

Your contribution, and those others have made, are few and far between and very much appreciated. Most contributions, if not all, have also been given without any expectation of a reward but, as and when we are able, we'll do our best to thank you for your generosity.

Many thanks to you,
Are you a "Goodwill Brewer?" Pay forward and Buy Some BIPs ;)

Re: The BIPs Thread

Post #10 made 3 years ago
I figured I could spend 1000's more $$$ on books for half the info on I get on here. I'm lucky enough to be getting into this form of brewing when so much experimenting, trial and error, and countless hours of groundwork have already been done. So no, thank you.
Stout, Stout, Stout, and some other stuff...
    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From Australia

Re: The BIPs Thread

Post #12 made 3 years ago
It could be the 11.9% KBS talking but I've just read the 'what's happening to biabrewer in 2017' thread and the BIPS thread and the bips web page and I was thinking to myself how can I financially contribute to the site to help these hard working, dedicated people out...

anyway I've gotta be honest I can't wrap my head around in a succinct way A) how to contribute to the site and (B) what BIPs essentially are.

One of my duties as a senior IT manager at work is ensure our department communicates well, in plain English, and assuming I still think the same when I'm rested and sober, I think the BIPS info and just the general ease of finding a way to contribute to the people dedicated to the site (i.e. Sarah/ Pat) is not clear enough.

For example the BIPS web page doesn't specify explicitly what BIP stands for (obviously you can figure it out) nor what BIPs are. The first section is 'why' instead of 'what'. I'd suggest you fix that up.

What if I want to contribute but don't care about BIPs; is there a way to do that? It's not easy to figure that out.

Anyway love the site and community and I'm "BiaB 'til I die." I'm keen to see continual improvement. Kudos to the amazingly dedicated site owners and core contributors in the community

    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From Australia

Re: The BIPs Thread

Post #13 made 3 years ago
Nick, many thanks for the above :salute: Totally valid points too. It's not that 11.9% beer talking :lol:

The idea of the Point System is to add a little recognition to those who contribute to the site, whether it be through content, labour, activity or financial contributions. Like most of what we do here, a lot of thought has gone into the system, however, it won't really make too much sense until the new site structure happens. Which leads to...

You may have read about our adventure last year where we thought we'd spend about four months full-time on the new site, mainly writing content, and have it up and running. The reality was 9 - 12 months dealing with unexpected IT challenges. Hopefully, we now know most of them. Surprisingly, the IT things we thought would be hardest were actually the easiest and vice versa. The constant finding of IT hiccoughs also meant the bank account eventually became exhausted :idiot:.

Many, many things were achieved though.

I also learned that I alone (even if Sarah could work free all week) do not have the labour or financial resources that are, in reality, required for the new site. It is going to require a lot!

Until about 5 weeks ago, I actually had no ideas on how the necessary resources could be obtained without turning the site into some sort of adfest. Finally, the brain began working again and I had a germ of an idea which I've been working on almost full-time since. It has developed into what should be an 'elegant' solution.

From your post above, I suspect you know that 'elegance,' often comes from assembling many complex parts into a whole. I'm now in the process of not only planning that assembly but also ensuring it is a fun, interesting and rewarding experience for all those who involved.

Speaking of which, I better get back to work :smoke:

Thanks again Nick. Pleased to see you are getting something out of the site even with it's current structure and look.
Are you a "Goodwill Brewer?" Pay forward and Buy Some BIPs ;)

Re: The BIPs Thread

Post #14 made 3 years ago
Hi Pat

I have definitely gained great value out of the site over the years irrespective of the format/ interface. I've just bought some BIPS so hope that helps.

Good luck on the elegant solution. Don't be discouraged by IT headaches; even us IT professionals often have big issues with major changes. I hope you at least have a test site you can run up so you don't have to big bang the live system to the desired end state and hope for the best!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From Australia
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