Considering First wort hopping
Post #51 made 11 years ago
Just doughed in tonight. Overnight mash! This better be beautiful PP
Post #52 made 11 years ago
Lol! Lars. Good on you!
BeerSmith had Gordon Strong on in this podcast I listened to today. It's a stand-out podcast for me as he talks on the important things*.
He loves first wort hopping
.
and can't wait to hear what you reckon,
PP
* Listen to the bit on flavour versus colour which we started talking about here quite a while ago. Flavour is way more important than colour but so many brewers focus on colour instead when brewing to style. This is probably due to spreadsheets and software which can only calculate three things, gravity (fairly closely), bitterness (fairly badly) and colour (not too bad)
.
BeerSmith had Gordon Strong on in this podcast I listened to today. It's a stand-out podcast for me as he talks on the important things*.
He loves first wort hopping
. and can't wait to hear what you reckon,PP
* Listen to the bit on flavour versus colour which we started talking about here quite a while ago. Flavour is way more important than colour but so many brewers focus on colour instead when brewing to style. This is probably due to spreadsheets and software which can only calculate three things, gravity (fairly closely), bitterness (fairly badly) and colour (not too bad)
.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 20 Nov 2012, 20:29, edited 2 times in total.
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Considering First wort hopping
Post #53 made 11 years ago
Bottled this today. FG 1.008, really surprised at how low it went. Had been sitting at about 15 or 16C since the 1st as I thought it was finished at 1.011 back then and turned down the thermostat. Beer was beautiful straight out of fermentor, beautiful hoppiness and not at all excessively dry despite low FG. Siphon into bottling bucket stopped about 3 or 4 times due to bubbles building up in siphon tube but cudnt figure where they were coming from as the tip was fully immersed at all times. Hope I haven't screwed up by aerating beer. This was beautiful and I definitely think the fwh contributed to a smoothness. Hope it's not screwed by aeration as it tasted really promising
Re: Considering First wort hopping
Post #54 made 11 years ago
A little feedback on my FWH Nelson Saving pale ale, the recipe was designed to have around 30 ibu before I changed it to FWH. The beer ended up turning out quite nice, the bitterness seemed to turn out the same as my other beers that I had done to around 30 ibu but the flavour seems to be more prominent in this one. The aroma isn't overly strong bit the flavour is definately there. I will be trying another one again soon with cascade.
Post #55 made 11 years ago
Lars: Maybe the bubbles were just the CO2 trapped in the beer escaping from solution due to ambient temp at bottling being much higher than that of the fermentor? (Does that make sense?) If all your syphon fittings were 'underwater' this is the only thing I can see being the cause unless you have mysteriously developed a pinhole in your syphon tube. You'd see this though I reckon.
Aydan: Love posts like yours. If you get the chance, can you post the original hop bill and the FWH'ed one? I'd love to see the breakdown of the original and what percentage of it that you moved to FWH.
Aydan: Love posts like yours
. If you get the chance, can you post the original hop bill and the FWH'ed one? I'd love to see the breakdown of the original and what percentage of it that you moved to FWH.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 11 Dec 2012, 20:05, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Considering First wort hopping
Post #56 made 11 years ago
I ended up going with the recipes that I posted earlier in the thread.
Considering First wort hopping
Post #57 made 11 years ago
PP I was secretly hoping someone would say that. In reality, the beer was about 15C when I brought it into the kitchen to bottle where the ambient was I'd say mid twenties. Also the sun was coming in the window and hitting the bucket but I hoped itd be siphoned fairly quick so wouldn't matter. It crossed my mind that it might be dissolved CO2 escaping but I didn't know if it was possible to come out of solution quick enough to screw up the siphon.
I'm pretty sure that's it so I'm lookin forward to the beer, just hope it's not over carbed as I gave up at 17 litres with 95grams of sucrose
I'm pretty sure that's it so I'm lookin forward to the beer, just hope it's not over carbed as I gave up at 17 litres with 95grams of sucrose
Post #58 made 11 years ago
I am completely lost with most of what this thread is talking about but read an article in this blog http://www.themadfermentationist.com/20 ... lysis.html which seems relevant to the topic about hop oils and their utilization. Don't ask me to comment on it though!
Post #59 made 11 years ago
aydan: Just looked up your ho bill aydan - assuming it is this one? You asked me at the time if it looked correct and I said, "Yep!" I had a quick look this morning and thought, "That's not right." Just had another look and really think I was totally wrong. (I'll do a another post below in a minute to explain the error.)
Lars: On the carbonation bit, have a play around with the priming calculator here that will be getting used in the BIABacus. That will give you an idea as to whether you have anything to worry about or not. (If the bubble thing in your syphon happens again, could be worth another thread
).
. (Too much 'normal' work on atm but will save that link up for when my brain can take it in 
).
Lars: On the carbonation bit, have a play around with the priming calculator here that will be getting used in the BIABacus. That will give you an idea as to whether you have anything to worry about or not. (If the bubble thing in your syphon happens again, could be worth another thread
). Just had a very quick scan of that link porchfiddler and it looks like a promising study/read. Good on youporchfiddler wrote:I am completely lost with most of what this thread is talking about but read an article in this blog http://www.themadfermentationist.com/20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... lysis.html which seems relevant to the topic about hop oils and their utilization. Don't ask me to comment on it though!
. (Too much 'normal' work on atm but will save that link up for when my brain can take it in ).
Last edited by PistolPatch on 12 Dec 2012, 21:02, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #60 made 11 years ago
In an earlier post, aydanrogers asked me to check a recipe he had adjusted to FWH. I said that the adjustment, "looked perfect."
My brain is pretty worn out atm but I was definitely wrong on this. I must have mainly (and too quickly) looked at the grams and not the times. Sorry Aydan.
If we go back to Post #2 of this thread, you'll see the correct logic. Let's see if I can explain where we went wrong and also maybe learn something from what Aydan reported on how his beer tasted...
The Original Hop Bill
15.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 17.7 IBUs
17.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 5 12.2 IBUs
19.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Aroma Steep 0. Hop 6 0.0 IBUs
The Incorrect FWH Adjustment
21.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - First Wort 60. Hop 4 27.3 IBUs
15.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 17.7 IBUs
15.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Aroma Steep 0. Hop 6 0.0 IBUs
The Correct FWH Adjustment assuming a 40% weight move.
20.4 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - First Wort
19.0 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min
11.6 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Boil 20.0 min
The Mistake
The mistake, and I should have picked up on it immediately was, "I used all of the flavour addition and 5g from the aroma addition." According to the totally primitive FWH rule we currently have, the aroma hops should have been 'stolen' from first and completely.
Can we learn anything?
Two things. Don't trust just one person checking your maths
. (That is actually quite an important point.)
I absolutely hate speculating on just one brew however, aydan's observation on a slight lack of aroma makes sense to me and on the very limited results that can be found on the net, some others on some brews, have also noticed a lack of aroma when FWH'ing. (I hate writing this because on some forums, one brewer on one brew, experiencing a certain result can immediately become, "all brewers on every brew in every beer style will get this result."
).
The principle of moving the late addition hops to FWH, is based, as far as I can see, on just one article on one style of beer - a pilsner from memory. It's a bit silly that we follow such rules, based on one brew.
I suspect that for something like a pale ale or what Aydan brewed here, you should leave the aroma additions as they are and start stealing from flavour hops first.
Who knows?
PP
My brain is pretty worn out atm but I was definitely wrong on this. I must have mainly (and too quickly) looked at the grams and not the times. Sorry Aydan
.If we go back to Post #2 of this thread, you'll see the correct logic. Let's see if I can explain where we went wrong and also maybe learn something from what Aydan reported on how his beer tasted...
The Original Hop Bill
15.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 17.7 IBUs
17.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 5 12.2 IBUs
19.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Aroma Steep 0. Hop 6 0.0 IBUs
The Incorrect FWH Adjustment
21.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - First Wort 60. Hop 4 27.3 IBUs
15.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 17.7 IBUs
15.00 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Aroma Steep 0. Hop 6 0.0 IBUs
The Correct FWH Adjustment assuming a 40% weight move.
20.4 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - First Wort
19.0 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min
11.6 g Nelson Sauvin [11.30 %] - Boil 20.0 min
The Mistake
The mistake, and I should have picked up on it immediately was, "I used all of the flavour addition and 5g from the aroma addition." According to the totally primitive FWH rule we currently have, the aroma hops should have been 'stolen' from first and completely.
Can we learn anything?
Two things. Don't trust just one person checking your maths
. (That is actually quite an important point.)I absolutely hate speculating on just one brew however, aydan's observation on a slight lack of aroma makes sense to me and on the very limited results that can be found on the net, some others on some brews, have also noticed a lack of aroma when FWH'ing. (I hate writing this because on some forums, one brewer on one brew, experiencing a certain result can immediately become, "all brewers on every brew in every beer style will get this result."
).The principle of moving the late addition hops to FWH, is based, as far as I can see, on just one article on one style of beer - a pilsner from memory. It's a bit silly that we follow such rules, based on one brew.
I suspect that for something like a pale ale or what Aydan brewed here, you should leave the aroma additions as they are and start stealing from flavour hops first.
Who knows?
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 12 Dec 2012, 22:06, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #61 made 10 years ago
Guys,
this worked really well for me, created a great IPA using FWHopping. I'm doing it again in the next few days and stealign from late additions to about 45% of AAUs leaves me with just bittering additions. I'm wondering whats the point in the bittering additions? Should I just dump the complete hop schedule in as FWH?
Thanks
L
this worked really well for me, created a great IPA using FWHopping. I'm doing it again in the next few days and stealign from late additions to about 45% of AAUs leaves me with just bittering additions. I'm wondering whats the point in the bittering additions? Should I just dump the complete hop schedule in as FWH?
Thanks
L
Post #62 made 10 years ago
Lars, FWH replaces the "Bitterness" and Most "Flavor" Additions.
You may need to add "Aroma" Hops, and Possibly more "Flavor" hops, toward the E.O.B. as timed in the recipe
You may need to add "Aroma" Hops, and Possibly more "Flavor" hops, toward the E.O.B. as timed in the recipe
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #63 made 10 years ago
Hi Joshua, I thought that correct implementation fo FWH meant adding later additions as FWH. This approach leaves me with no late additions(but I will be dry hopping)
Post #64 made 10 years ago
Lars, that is mostly correct.
Many users of FWH report smooth Bittering and a nice amount of Flavor, if you FWH the Bitterness and Flavor hops.
The Aroma can still be added near or at flame-out for 10 minutes.
Many users of FWH report smooth Bittering and a nice amount of Flavor, if you FWH the Bitterness and Flavor hops.
The Aroma can still be added near or at flame-out for 10 minutes.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
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Post #65 made 10 years ago
Lars,
Hoping beer is a matter of taste (yours)! FWH is perceived by many as a more mild bitterness, more persistent. There is some funny magic going on in the wort and the chemistry is a mystery to the people in the brewing industry. I use first wort hopping quite a lot but I still late hop and dry hop. It doesn't matter, if you like it do it!
Hoping beer is a matter of taste (yours)! FWH is perceived by many as a more mild bitterness, more persistent. There is some funny magic going on in the wort and the chemistry is a mystery to the people in the brewing industry. I use first wort hopping quite a lot but I still late hop and dry hop. It doesn't matter, if you like it do it!
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #66 made 10 years ago
I had a lot of success with FWH in combo with cube hopping, where I threw my flameout additions into the no chill cube.
AWOL
