Why make brewing difficult?

Post #1 made 13 years ago
Why do we make brewing difficult? why do we try to over analise things?

Brewing is a simple process, we turn malted barley into fermentable wort. We then boil the wort to kill any nasties, while adding hops to add bitterness (aroma and flavour) and to preserve the brew. After that the yeast gets to do it's thing.
Pretty simple really :argh:

Why then do we get all worked up if our numbers aren't right? If our gravity is off or volumes down? Does it really matter? Surely we all still have beer at the end of it all?

When I first started brewing BIAB beers, I would stir the mash and check the temperature every 5 minutes. I would fuss and bother over efficiencies (whatever they are???) I'd worry over the IBU's the beer would have and all the while I didn't know what these things really were.
Now I don't touch the mash for 90 minutes and still get 80% post boil efficiency most brews. Some brews I only get 68-70%, but that's because I'm using a shitty bag of malt that just wont give me good extract conversion. But I know the malt is shitty, so I'm not bothered over the numbers.
I don't even bother taking hydrometer readings any more, ever, what's the point? I don't need to brag about getting such and such numbers and even if my extract efficiency is 10 points off, I still end up with beer at the end of the day that tastes the way it was planned to taste. I can't tell the difference between 2 identical beers with different eficiencies! They both taste the same.

What are IBU's? yes, yes I know International Bitterness Units, but what does that mean? I've brewed beers from 12 IBU's to 75 IBU's, sure 1 is less bitter than the other, but I could not drink a beer and say with any confidence that that beer is 42.7 IBU's. I could pick out hop bitterness, flavour and aroma, but that's where the limits of my palette end.

Sorry for the rant, but I get annoyed when, as brewers, we get hooked on and encourage others to worry about numbers that sometimes can't even be explained in a rational manner.

Beer is easy; Barley, water, hops and yeast.
Mash, mashout, boil and ferment.

It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.
Last edited by hashie on 28 Jan 2012, 13:59, edited 3 times in total.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #2 made 13 years ago
:thumbs: :salute: Thanks Hashie I'm not the only heretic here.I love reading everones input and ideas andI applaud the efforts of everyone sweating the details of the Biabacus.I still rely soley on The Calculator to give me a scaled grain bill and thats about it.I try to fill my kettle to the same rivet everytime and boil down to a mark on a stick.I like to eff around with different hop amounts and timings but don't really take much put much credence into IBU's.My multiple pages of notes have dwindled down to a record of grain weights,hop additions,mash temps and SG's.All other readings I take during the brew day are more from general interest and amusement.
Oh my,what have I said.Sorry Pat and others but I just like to brew. Numbers and notes are way down on my agenda. :argh:
Last edited by Lylo on 29 Jan 2012, 06:24, edited 3 times in total.
AWOL

Post #3 made 13 years ago
I suppose you need to worry about the numbers if you are trying do repeatable brews or develop your own recipes with a particular result in mind. For a beginner like me the numbers game can be very off-putting.

Bob

Post #4 made 13 years ago
Excellent thread hashie :thumbs:,

hashie and I are mates and talk on the phone quite often and this is one of the things we often talk about - how can you get new brewers to concentrate on the important things?

Hashie and I know...

1. It is very hard to brew a crap all-grain beer assuming you have cleanliness and sanitisation sussed.
2. Many recipes can be abused to a high degree. You can brew a tasty pale ale or dark beer with as little alcohol as 2.5% - easy. Or you can overdo it and still get something yum.

I worry about numbers a lot because there are so many wrong ones around and this distracted the hell out of me when I started all-grain. As a new all-grainer, you naturally expect the programs you use and posts you read to be easy to understand or at least correct. (I took them as 'Gosphel'.) Many numbers used in home-brewing are, in fact, totally ridiculous. See my post here for an excellent example. That post illustrates the comedy of IBU's. Another great comedy is undefined efficiency.

Experienced brewers like hashie and myself know that you can make major stuff-ups and get great beer. We also know that we can throw our hydrometers away but...

We know this from experience but new brewers do not have experience. Numbers can make gaining experience much faster if the right emphasis is placed upon them. (Not much fun brewing five brews and then finding you have an inaccurate thermometer for example!) Numbers are excellent crutches to help us to walk. Unfortunately, the existing crutches (given in programs and posts) are twisted and uneven which often make it very hard for a new brewer to walk into all-grain confidently.

I'm pretty sure that most of my time on BIABrewer is spent in straightening out problems caused by existing programs/posts on numbers (e.g. the link above). I really believe that good guidelines accelerate the new brewer's destination to nonchalance :lol:.

Good on you hashie (sort of :lol:),
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 28 Jan 2012, 21:44, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #5 made 13 years ago
hashie
Well put! I totally agree with you. I have never been a numbers man. I have been a beer man. I disliked math in school but I always liked to sneak a beer from my dad. I don't reproach those who like numbers because they don't belittle me for not liking numbers. I just think that reproducing favorite beers exactly is not fun for me. I like producing a good beer easily and inexpensively. It's not the process that turns me on it's the beer.

I love BIAB because it fits my style of brewing (easy and inexpensive) If you try to over analise things it's a turn off for new brewers who think they are a failure because they miss a number by 1 degree. These new brewers are astounded that their failure turned out to be a fantastic beer!

I have no idea what my gravities are because I haven't tested a beer in years. I do have a few beers that I do like to reproduce. I use the same recipe each time and it turns out the same way each time. If I miss a temperature by a degree or two or my grain is a bit old the taste may be slightly different, but I will never know because it all tastes the same to me (especially after succeeding beers)!
Last edited by BobBrews on 28 Jan 2012, 22:04, edited 3 times in total.
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tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV

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Post #6 made 13 years ago
Good Day Hashie, We have to care about the numbers, it's all about the numbers!

We can say we made a great Brew using some grains, some hops, some "special" water, Some "Special" yeast, and the only replies are, what's your NUMBERS.
Boil off rate, kettle size and Height, water Chemistry, There all numbers. It seems you can't brew beer without a computer.
Of course you need a computer, to brag about your brew, post your recipe, and show your great numbers!!!

Sorry for the ramble, it's early here, it was a long night, if you know what I mean.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #10 made 13 years ago
I have two vigorous buckets bubbling away in my office (to keep warm) with the door shut. Perhaps the C02 is getting to me? Perhaps it's the "testing" of previous beers that I was doing at 9am.? I think that more likely it is because I am right and everybody that thinks differently is wrong. Ha Ha!

I am having a ball coming up with recipes for the 55lb. bag of "Golden Promise" that I bought yesterday. "The Innkeeper" will be tomorrow and "Fish Pee" will be at the Polar brew in two weeks!
http://youtu.be/RQgOa5u1fes 2012
http://youtu.be/9ZEgAXW6U3w 2011
] I have 3 ounces of Sorachi Ace (Typical alpha: 10-16%. Exciting high-alpha aroma hop with intense lemon character. Try in a Belgian ale or IPA.) I will brew a SMaSH with that for this summer's consumption?

All is right in my brewing world! and SWMBO is going out of town for 10 days! Wish me luck!
Last edited by BobBrews on 29 Jan 2012, 00:28, edited 4 times in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV

Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #12 made 13 years ago
I have corny kegs of "Bavarian Helles", "John Q. Adams Marblehead Lager", "Peace Coffee Stout" with smoked peat added. I have various bottles of mix and match past brews. I have enough for ten days. I have two in the fermenters if I am desperate! (who needs carbonation?) It's vastly overrated!

I do plan to make some "Hop Vodka" today also. I only have to see which hops I can use without shorting a upcoming brew? http://www.stempski.com/hop_vodka.php

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documenta ... Helles.pdf
http://www.northernbrewer.com/documenta ... QAdams.pdf
http://www.northernbrewer.com/documenta ... Porter.pdf
Last edited by BobBrews on 29 Jan 2012, 01:24, edited 3 times in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV

Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #13 made 13 years ago
I totally agree to some extent. Discovering and keeping some basic data about your brew set up and brew days can be helpful though. Especially, if you are interested in learning about brewing and discovering where something went wrong or could be improved upon. I do keep a brewing log and enter my recipes into brewing software. It can be fun to look at all of this stuff, but some times I think people spend way too much time freaking out if the beer is 5.8% or 6% ABV. Your brain and your liver won't be able to tell the difference. Now if said beer came out at 3% you may wish you had kept track of your data to discover the error of your ways. After you peg your boil off rate, trub loss, and water calculations it should be VERY simple (I always tell my friends if you can bake a batch of cookies you SHOULD be able to brew great beer)... I have friends that are extract brewers that are intimidated by all grain, want to switch, but keep brewing extract. I really don't think BIAB is all that complicated...

Post #14 made 13 years ago
Good replies all :)

Numbers are important, without them I wouldn't be brewing without them. I had to learn how to brew and how my equipment worked.
I've kept records all the way and now have the confidence to brew without taking umpteen measurements. I know that if I start with 37 litres of water, 5kg of grain and some hops, I'll have ~27 litres of fresh wort to cube for fermenting. If it only comes out as a 3% abv brew, I wouldn't know because it will still taste the same as a 4% abv brew.

I'm not saying new brewers should not worry over numbers, they need to to be able to learn the process. But they need to worry about the right numbers. Who measures the temperature of their grain? I never have, I don't see the point. There are plenty of other examples of numbers and formulas to bamboozle and confuse the new brewer, when in reality the process is simple and easy>

As experienced brewers, I'd prefer to pass on the simplicity to new brewers, rather than the complexity.

Glad to see I'm not the only heretic :)
Last edited by hashie on 29 Jan 2012, 05:47, edited 3 times in total.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #15 made 13 years ago
Numbers allow you to see what actually happened, which can help you to improve or at least understand your process

Numbers allow me to target 1.040, 1.050 or 1.060, which does make an appreciable difference?

I find IBUs to be a little stupid, but at the end of the day it's a way to 'quantitatively' describe a brew to someone on the otherwise of the world, and theoretically it can help with reproduction.

When the grain bill is the same, the numbers are close and you think it tastes the same the maybe you cracked the reproducibility

I take an OG and and FG grav reading at fermentation. This gets me a reading on body and an accurate alc% for my guests. I end up telling people some is 4.5%, 5%, 5.5% etc anyway
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #16 made 13 years ago
hashie wrote:Good replies all :)
Glad to see I'm not the only heretic :)
Um.....I believe being a BIAB'er is, by traditional definition, a "heretic".

Arrrgh, I raise me mug in salute to me brew pirate brethren!
Image
Last edited by thughes on 29 Jan 2012, 09:42, edited 3 times in total.
WWBBD?
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Post #18 made 13 years ago
thughes wrote: Um.....I believe being a BIAB'er is, by traditional definition, a "heretic".
Ill second that remark!

This brewing thing can be different things to different people...... I deal with Fly fisherman every day. For some it very very technical, some do it competitively, and some just get out there and fish with no worries if they're doing it "right". Truth be told it can be very simple.

This BIAB style I think is the same. You can and sometimes should be very number centric. But if you dont feel like it or don't like numbers(like me) and just enjoy having good beer that you made yourself :yum: , you can do that too.

The best thing around here, is that all us heretics seem to be in this together, the number brewers and the free wheeling brewers. Everyone is willing to lend a helping hand.

For me, previous posts have summed it up well. With some good sanitation (which I appear to have failed at for the first time on my last brew :sad: ) and a few rules of thumb, I make good beer!
Last edited by 2trout on 29 Jan 2012, 22:46, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #20 made 13 years ago
I like numbers :o. Hitting the numbers re-assures me that I'm doing great and that the beer would taste great :interesting:. But I do dream of that hydrometer-less, number-less nirvana that only comes from experience... Now, shall I mash my next brew at 65.4C or 65.7C :think:
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Post #21 made 13 years ago
lambert wrote:I like numbers :o. Hitting the numbers re-assures me that I'm doing great and that the beer would taste great :interesting:. But I do dream of that hydrometer-less, number-less nirvana that only comes from experience... Now, shall I mash my next brew at 65.4C or 65.7C :think:
definitely 65.4C, 65.7C would be way too sweet :)

The original intent of the OP was not necessarily for people to abandon their hydrometer, although it is a liberating thing to do. It was to encourage new brewers to concentrate on the important numbers like, temperature, grain weight and liquid volume. Rather than being caught up on a 2% efficiency change, when often efficiency is poorly defined and other brewing ambiguities.
Beersmith asks a brewer what temperature their grain is prior to adding to the mash. I ask, who cares and what difference could it possibly make, other than a change of 0.02°C once added to the strike water?
Last edited by hashie on 31 Jan 2012, 05:47, edited 3 times in total.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #22 made 13 years ago
hashie wrote:Beersmith asks a brewer what temperature their grain is prior to adding to the mash. I ask, who cares and what difference could it possibly make, other than a change of 0.02°C once added to the strike water?
I understand the intent of the OP, but this statement isn't universally true. Sure, if you're lucky enough to live in warm weather climates, your grain temp will more-or-less be consistent and you can easily get a feel for what the temp drop will be upon dough-in. But for people living in cold weather climates and storing their grains in the garage overnight, the temp drop will be significantly different (don't have my strike water calculator atm to check). But, 10# of 70F grain is much different than 10# of 40F grain, which is certainly within reason for anyone living in the northern half of the US during the winter months. Obviously the simple answer is to store the grain inside the night before brewing, but one should be careful to avoid over-generalizing things because there is a difference.
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 31 Jan 2012, 06:56, edited 3 times in total.

Post #23 made 13 years ago
Good Day, As we do in middle America, Throw the grains in, stir, and turn on the heat til' it the mash is correct!

I am very lazy.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #24 made 13 years ago
Also would make more of a difference on a non direct-fired mash tun. Poor esky brewers :(
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #25 made 13 years ago
Thanks for a great post Hashie!!
You mean I don't need to take 3 pages of notes on brewday :o ?

I only have a few BIABs under my belt, so it's a bit early for me to throw away the numerical training wheels!!

Yeast cell calculations and pitching rates...that's what's doing my head in right now :scratch:.
Can someone please :pray: tell me it really isn't that important.
Then I can take the plunge into liquid yeast starters without fear of under/over pitching!!

I know I'm probably dreaming right :lol: ??
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