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Flaked wheat OK with BIAB?

Post #1 made 10 years ago
by laserghost
Hi guys,

I have been formulating a recipe I'm going to try hopefully this weekend, which uses 6% flaked wheat (1 lb / 455 g) in the grist. It's designed to be 1.068 and I'm mashing at 151 F / 66.11 C (90m), for a moderately-well attenuated IPA (I hope).

I saw an email this morning from Brad Smith doing one of his features, and it's a mostly descriptive overview of BIAB, but it ends on a statement specifically about adjuncts and mentioning flaked wheat. I'm wondering if the amount I'm using is negligible and if I should reconsider perhaps subbing it for 1/2 lb of carapils.

Should flaked adjuncts be handled differently with BIAB? I assume with a traditional mash I could just mash the amount above no problem. I've also got 80% US 2 Row and 12% Smoked Malt (2 Row) so there should be plenty of enzymes, right?

Here's the last bit of the email:

High Water to Grain Ratio - Mashing at a high water to grain ratio, as is the case here, results in lower levels of beta-amalyse, resulting in more dextrines in the finished beer. This can translate to higher body than desired at the high end of the mash temperature range (156-158F). Conversely, the thin mash also works poorly at the low end (148-150F), creating dry beer. In general BIAB works best in the mid mash temperature range (150-156F). Finally, if you are brewing a beer high in non-barley adjuncts such as flaked wheat, BIAB may not be the best option. (Ref: BN Article on BIAB)
Last edited by laserghost on 04 Mar 2014, 21:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #2 made 10 years ago
by BobBrews
laserghost,

I don't see any reason not to use it and I almost always use 1/2 pound of carapils for every brew. I am not an expert but on recipes or formulating them. Most grain is now so highly modified and chuck full of enzymes that it will convert fine. Maybe a 90 minute mash would give you better results or at least set your mind at ease. Stir well if you do 90? I do know that for my poor taste buds and weak sense of smell. The beer would taste fine and have a decent viscosity. If you think you will have to much body then mash a little cooler and longer?
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Post #4 made 10 years ago
by PistolPatch
laserghost wrote:I saw an email this morning from Brad Smith doing one of his features, and it's a mostly descriptive overview of BIAB, but it ends on a statement specifically about adjuncts and mentioning flaked wheat.

Here's the last bit of the email:[/size]

High Water to Grain Ratio - Mashing at a high water to grain ratio, as is the case here, results in lower levels of beta-amalyse, resulting in more dextrines in the finished beer. This can translate to higher body than desired at the high end of the mash temperature range (156-158F). Conversely, the thin mash also works poorly at the low end (148-150F), creating dry beer. In general BIAB works best in the mid mash temperature range (150-156F). Finally, if you are brewing a beer high in non-barley adjuncts such as flaked wheat, BIAB may not be the best option. (Ref: BN Article on BIAB)
LG, I'm never sure what to do when I come across stuff like this. The BeerSmith article on BIAB has many faults and I did ask Brad to re-write it but that never happened. I just assumed he would get around to it after I had helped with BeerSmith2 but I fear that and a few other important things just got forgotten even though I did try to ensure they didn't without becoming a pest. I was really disappointed to see a recent BeerSmith article on no-sparge brewing is also actually completely wrong. And, there is also an article I wrote many years ago, on the BeerSmith wikki about BIAB and the source is not even mentioned. (The annoying thing is that was just a draft I put out on a forum for feedback). So, be careful what you read.

I'm really not sure what I, or this site, should do about stuff like this.

All I can think to say is that this place is the real home of BIAB brewing. If you can get better, more accurate advice on BIAB brewing (and probably brewing generally) anywhere else, then I am all ears.

I see absolutely no reason why you should worry about flaked wheat.

;)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 05 Mar 2014, 20:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #5 made 9 years ago
by BDP
Hi Bob,

So it sounds like you go up to 5% Carapils on your brews? I've had two BIAB brews with no head whatsoever, and one with a lovely clean head and good retention. All different styles and recipes though, so can't draw any direct conclusions here.

Do you add the Carapils with all the other grain for the full mash duration, or do you reserve it for later addition (shorter mash duration). I read another post on this forum, where it was suggested that it be added with 30 minutes remaining. Can't figure out the logic for doing that though.

Would be interested in your comments.

Thanks
BDP

Post #7 made 9 years ago
by BobBrews
BDP,
I read another post on this forum, where it was suggested that it be added with 30 minutes remaining.
I never heard or read about reserving them to add late in the mash? However. Reserving dark grains that are ground up separately as a way of keeping the pH steady has been done for years. Roasted grains not only add color and flavor to stout, they lower the pH of the mash. Although pH reduction is not necessarily a bad thing in brewing, roasted grains push the pH below 5.2 when low carbonate brewing water is used. So I have heard of dark grains but like you, I see no reason to add carapils late in the mash? I mash them with all my other grains.

Adjusting pH will help head retention and conversion efficiency.

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Last edited by BobBrews on 24 Oct 2014, 19:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #8 made 9 years ago
by Hints
BDP wrote:Do you add the Carapils with all the other grain for the full mash duration, or do you reserve it for later addition (shorter mash duration). I read another post on this forum, where it was suggested that it be added with 30 minutes remaining. Can't figure out the logic for doing that though.
It is very unlikely that you would have read that advice on this forum BDP so I would ignore it.

[Please note that Hints does not reply to direct questions.]
Last edited by Hints on 24 Oct 2014, 19:56, edited 1 time in total.

Post #10 made 9 years ago
by jhough
BDP and all . That could have been something that I had posted. I this read on The Beverage People
Dextrine Malt (1.5) –Aka “Carapils®” or “Cara-crystal.” When added late to a mash,
after starch conversion has run its course, dextrine malt contributes unfermentable
dextrins, increasing the viscosity of the beer, giving it additional smoothness and
sometimes a touch of sweetness as well. If mashed in with other light malts, at least
some of the dextrins will probably be converted to fermentable sugar.
Dextrins are best understood by thinking of them as neither a sugar or a starch,
but existing somewhere in between the two groups. They are not considered directly
fermentable, though some yeasts may convert them to a fermentable form over an
extended period of time
Some dextrins are formed in an ordinary mash, but the addition of up to a pound
of dextrine malt to the last half hour of a mash for a five gallon batch of beer, allows you
to increase the amount. Extract brewers can also increase dextrins by adding dextrin in
powder form (See p. XX).
Note that European Carapils malt, should you encounter it, may be
slightly different than you’re used to using. The name was registered in the
United States by a different company than the one which registered it in
other countries
Joe
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Post #11 made 9 years ago
by mally
Thats pretty much the way I think of it Joe.

I made a reference previously to some experiments done on HBT here.

Definitely worth thinking about.
Last edited by mally on 25 Oct 2014, 18:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #12 made 9 years ago
by BDP
Very interesting article, Joe. Also the one posted by Bob. I think I'll try a small addition of Carapils in my next brew. To date, my brews have been either head strong ;) or headless, and nothing in-between. Go figure.

Cheers

Post #13 made 9 years ago
by jhough
BDP. I usually use 227-340 kg per 19 ltr batch. As stated I mash in the last 30 min. and it hasn't changed my PH so far.
Joe
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Post #14 made 9 years ago
by joshua
Joe, how do you fit 340KG in a 19L Pot, or Mash Tun??????????
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Post #16 made 9 years ago
by BDP
Hi jhough,

Do you bother to record this addition in your recipe format in BIABacus? Assuming that you use it, of course :)

I'm thinking that it would be important in order to get the water volumes correct, for instance.

Thanks,
BDP

Post #17 made 9 years ago
by jhough
BDP, yes I do record it in the Biabacus file. Yes I use Biabacus for my FVM and FVV - Maxi Biab.
I have been thing about adding the carapils as a steeping grain per a previous post by Hashie.
Joe
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