Hi All,
I see people on here talking about dumping a new wort onto the trub from a recently fermented brew, seems like a good idea to me.
A couple of questions:
Do you remove the trub from the fermenter, clean and sanitise the fermenter then put it back in or do you just pour the new wort in on top, leaving the krausen grime and all?
I presume you give the wort a good aerate and mix the trub in?
I've got my 1st BIAB attempt in the fermenter right now and I'd like, if possible, to make some more wort this weekend and re-use the trub to ferment it out.
Any advice gratefully received!
Post #2 made 11 years ago
brewdave,
We dump new wort on a "Yeast Cake" not trub in a fermenter. I reuse the yeast cake after draining the fermenter of finished beer into bottles or a keg. The now empty fermenter containing the yeast cake is ready for new wort. Just dump it in aerate and your done. Some brewers will "Wash" the yeast if they want to keep it for more than a day. If you are interested in saving some yeast for starters look up "Washing yeast" on the internet or on this forum. I trust you meant yeast cake not reusing trub?
We dump new wort on a "Yeast Cake" not trub in a fermenter. I reuse the yeast cake after draining the fermenter of finished beer into bottles or a keg. The now empty fermenter containing the yeast cake is ready for new wort. Just dump it in aerate and your done. Some brewers will "Wash" the yeast if they want to keep it for more than a day. If you are interested in saving some yeast for starters look up "Washing yeast" on the internet or on this forum. I trust you meant yeast cake not reusing trub?
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Post #3 made 11 years ago
Ahh yes that's exactly what I meant! I'm still coming to terms with the terms..
Thanks for the prompt and informative answer.
Thanks for the prompt and informative answer.
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Post #4 made 11 years ago
i would not recommend it although i know it works.
i do think you should remove the yeast cake, clean and sanitize your fermenter and than pitch the yeast on to the new wort.
if the first beer was a hoppy beer and the yeast cake contains a lot of hop matter, i would recommend washing it.
i do think you should remove the yeast cake, clean and sanitize your fermenter and than pitch the yeast on to the new wort.
if the first beer was a hoppy beer and the yeast cake contains a lot of hop matter, i would recommend washing it.
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
Post #5 made 11 years ago
shibolet,
You are correct. I should have made that plain. I reuse yeast but I always do it in order. I use a new first time yeast with something plain like a English bitter and then go on to stronger beer. If I use a lot of hops I save that for the last fermentation and then dump the yeast. I don't wash or save yeast because it takes time and work. I don't have much time left and I don't like to work! So I may only use a yeast cake three times?
You are correct. I should have made that plain. I reuse yeast but I always do it in order. I use a new first time yeast with something plain like a English bitter and then go on to stronger beer. If I use a lot of hops I save that for the last fermentation and then dump the yeast. I don't wash or save yeast because it takes time and work. I don't have much time left and I don't like to work! So I may only use a yeast cake three times?
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Post #6 made 11 years ago
I found this quite interesting on HBT about "why not to pitch on your yeast cake".
A lot say it works, but the "specialists" say it will not guarantee good beer every time.
It is a long post (40 pages), but the flaming can be entertaining.
I have tried it once, from an all vienna, to all munich lager, and the racking to secondary taste test was disappointing for the yeast cake batch. Although i am hoping this will clean up in the lagering phase, I cannot advise for or against it at the moment.
Question for Bob; your third usage of the cake wouldnt be for that weak bodied, session ale, black IPA would it?
A lot say it works, but the "specialists" say it will not guarantee good beer every time.
It is a long post (40 pages), but the flaming can be entertaining.
I have tried it once, from an all vienna, to all munich lager, and the racking to secondary taste test was disappointing for the yeast cake batch. Although i am hoping this will clean up in the lagering phase, I cannot advise for or against it at the moment.
Question for Bob; your third usage of the cake wouldnt be for that weak bodied, session ale, black IPA would it?
Last edited by mally on 30 Nov 2012, 03:35, edited 2 times in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #7 made 11 years ago
mally,
In the past I have reused a Black IPA yeast cake on another Black IPA. But as you have guessed the yeast cake is pretty much shot after a big beer like that! Now maybe I should reformulate the recipe with a lower ABV in mind? On this subject I made a black IPA last year by adding the yeast to the no chill cube. It worked perfectly and after I siphoned the beer out I added a fresh black IPA wort into the used yeast in the no chill container. One of the two beers won 1st place in the Golden Growler!
The process of reusing yeast is not perfect. To much yeast is as bad as being to short. But if you are careful in the order of reuse it can be a viable option.
P.S. I will win Cheesestradamus this week so send your congratulations now!
In the past I have reused a Black IPA yeast cake on another Black IPA. But as you have guessed the yeast cake is pretty much shot after a big beer like that! Now maybe I should reformulate the recipe with a lower ABV in mind? On this subject I made a black IPA last year by adding the yeast to the no chill cube. It worked perfectly and after I siphoned the beer out I added a fresh black IPA wort into the used yeast in the no chill container. One of the two beers won 1st place in the Golden Growler!
The process of reusing yeast is not perfect. To much yeast is as bad as being to short. But if you are careful in the order of reuse it can be a viable option.
P.S. I will win Cheesestradamus this week so send your congratulations now!
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Post #8 made 11 years ago
I quite regularly reuse either some of the yeast or the full yeast cake.. but you can take things too far http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=1836 as you can see in this thread, three brews on the same yeast cake is just a bit stoopid 
I'll tell you how the beer tastes in another week.
What i often do when i want to reuse my big fermenter is just scoop a couple of ladle fulls of slurry into a sterilised jar. I then clean and sterilise the fermenter. Half an hour later the slurry has seperated somewhat and you can pour the liquid off the top, then pour the middle yeast layer back into the fermenter and leave most of the heavy trub in the bottom of the jar.
I then take 2 no chilled cubes of wort, pour some into the fermenter, close the cube again and shake the shit out of it to aearate it better and then pour the rest into the fermenter and we're off again.
Neat and easy.
I'll tell you how the beer tastes in another week.What i often do when i want to reuse my big fermenter is just scoop a couple of ladle fulls of slurry into a sterilised jar. I then clean and sterilise the fermenter. Half an hour later the slurry has seperated somewhat and you can pour the liquid off the top, then pour the middle yeast layer back into the fermenter and leave most of the heavy trub in the bottom of the jar.
I then take 2 no chilled cubes of wort, pour some into the fermenter, close the cube again and shake the shit out of it to aearate it better and then pour the rest into the fermenter and we're off again.
Neat and easy.
Last edited by Aces high on 01 Dec 2012, 10:04, edited 2 times in total.
Post #9 made 11 years ago
[quote="BobBrews"]mally,
In the past I have reused a Black IPA yeast cake on another Black IPA. But as you have guessed the yeast cake is pretty much shot after a big beer like that! Now maybe I should reformulate the recipe with a lower ABV in mind? On this subject I made a black IPA last year by adding the yeast to the no chill cube. It worked perfectly and after I siphoned the beer out I added a fresh black IPA wort into the used yeast in the no chill container. One of the two beers won 1st place in the Golden Growler!
quote]
Golden Growler!!!!! is that a real thing or something you just made up Bob? Are you the only participant?
In the past I have reused a Black IPA yeast cake on another Black IPA. But as you have guessed the yeast cake is pretty much shot after a big beer like that! Now maybe I should reformulate the recipe with a lower ABV in mind? On this subject I made a black IPA last year by adding the yeast to the no chill cube. It worked perfectly and after I siphoned the beer out I added a fresh black IPA wort into the used yeast in the no chill container. One of the two beers won 1st place in the Golden Growler!
quote]
Golden Growler!!!!! is that a real thing or something you just made up Bob? Are you the only participant?
Post #10 made 11 years ago
It's a real competition! Our local club started it and some other (more organized) club took it over a few years ago. It was for local clubs but now it is open State wide. I enter just because by entering a six pack you get a glass, a ballot and the right to sample (and judge) the "People Choice" awards. $5 and you can drink for a couple of hours! Sweet deal! I took the first place in 2012 for my Black IPA "Cascadian Night"Golden Growler!!!!! is that a real thing or something you just made up Bob? Are you the only participant?
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Group F - Sour, Fruit, Smoked, Barrel-Aged and Experimental
Place Entry Brewer Beer
1 27F23 Robert Stempski Cascadian Night
2 - tie 30F20 Bill Summers Cranberry Tart
2 - tie 32F17 Al Ewan Berliner Babe
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http://www.bullfalls-homebrewers.org/goldengrowler.html
http://www.goldengrowler.com/2012/pc2.html
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Last edited by BobBrews on 01 Dec 2012, 21:20, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #11 made 11 years ago
I think growler might mean a different thing in Aussie
Sounds like a good night though
Sounds like a good night though
Post #12 made 11 years ago
Aces high,
A growler was a small bucket that we used to carry beer in. When my parents were young they would carry the growler to the corner bar and the barkeeper would fill the bucket with beer for the kids to take home to dad! It wouldn't work today! Now we have 1/2 gallon glass jugs that we fill with beer to take home from craft breweries.
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The term likely dates back to the late 19th century when fresh beer was carried from the local pub to one's home by means of a small galvanized pail. It is claimed the sound that the CO2 made when it escaped from the lid as the beer sloshed around sounded like a growl.
Now a days A growler is a glass or ceramic jug with a capacity of 0.5 US gallons (1,900 ml) used to transport draft beer in Australia, the United States and Canada. They are commonly sold at breweries and brewpubs as a means to sell take-out beer.
---------------------------------------------------------
A growler was a small bucket that we used to carry beer in. When my parents were young they would carry the growler to the corner bar and the barkeeper would fill the bucket with beer for the kids to take home to dad! It wouldn't work today! Now we have 1/2 gallon glass jugs that we fill with beer to take home from craft breweries.
-------------------------------------------------
The term likely dates back to the late 19th century when fresh beer was carried from the local pub to one's home by means of a small galvanized pail. It is claimed the sound that the CO2 made when it escaped from the lid as the beer sloshed around sounded like a growl.
Now a days A growler is a glass or ceramic jug with a capacity of 0.5 US gallons (1,900 ml) used to transport draft beer in Australia, the United States and Canada. They are commonly sold at breweries and brewpubs as a means to sell take-out beer.
---------------------------------------------------------
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Last edited by BobBrews on 01 Dec 2012, 22:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #13 made 11 years ago
Nice link mallymally wrote:I found this quite interesting on HBT about "why not to pitch on your yeast cake".
brewdave, what I used to do was wash the yeast sort of the same way (but not quite) as explained here. I'd add about 2 litres of cooled boiled water into the fermentor, swirl it around and then drain it into 750ml bottles (about 2/3rds full) and refrigerate. Next day, pour off nearly all the liquid and top that up with cooled boiled water again to about two-thirds, swirl and refrigerate. Sometimes I might wash it a third time if I wanted to keep it for a while or wash it less, not at all, if I was using it the next week. You end up with about a cup of washed slurry in each bottle - enough to do an average brew.
I've kept US-05 yeast going for over a year with this method with sometimes well over a month between brews. But, you will get the occasional dodgy bottle so you should smell the bottle and taste some of the liquid on top before you pitch. Anything strange about it, ditch it.
I believe that some types of yeast strains can't be re-used for more than a few generations as they are a blend of two strains and one over-takes the other after a while. I have only heard this explanation from one pro brewer and have never found any other info on this. This means I have no idea what strains are singles and double though. US-05 must be a single for sure though.
As for pitching onto the yeast cake directly, I've never done it but I scare easily
. I don't think anyone would disagree that it is probably a safer practice to clean/sanitise the fermentor. This just costs a bit of extra time.
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 02 Dec 2012, 14:47, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #14 made 11 years ago
Hey PP, I have pitched directly on top of a cake before with no issues. I figure if the fermentor has just produced a fully fermented infection-free batch, the inside of it has to be a suitable environment to ferment aanother bacth without screwing around cleaning it out. On the other hand I have only done this a few times....before I started harvesting yeast via other methods.
---Todd
---Todd
WWBBD?
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Post #15 made 11 years ago
You are one of very many that have done the same and I haven't disputed this at all. What I think needs considering is whether you should advise others to do likewise without knowing their methods (eg are they using a fermentor tap? How experienced are they?)thughes wrote:Hey PP, I have pitched directly on top of a cake before with no issues.
Well, I'd agree with that a tiny bit if you were able to transfer your new wort into the fermentor without taking the lid offthughes wrote:I figure if the fermentor has just produced a fully fermented infection-free batch, the inside of it has to be a suitable environment to ferment another batch without screwing around cleaning it out.
. But even then I'd only agree a tiny bit. How much crap is on the inside of a fermentor after you brewed? Do you really want that being a part of your next brew? So many other things... for example, would a new brewer even know that they were not pitching onto an infected cake?...
To me, it's just bad advice to tell a brewer to pitch onto a yeast cake without knowing their level of experience. You or I might be able to do it but we know what problems to look out for. At best, it is a lazy practice, something that may save a bit of time (BobBrews will confirm this.). It is certainly not a good practice to encourage except in the rarest of brewing situations.
If brewdave does decide to give this a go, I hope the advice offered in the first few posts here haven't been lost re making sure he pitches onto higher IBU worts etc.
Tricky threads these ones. If not played right, the new brewer/skim reader can easily interpret them incorrectly. Safe, best practices get quickly lost.
PP
P.S. You know the show, "Grumpy old men?" I think I could take the leading role in, "Grumpy old brewers."
Last edited by PistolPatch on 02 Dec 2012, 23:38, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #16 made 11 years ago
I don't debate that it's bad advice to pitch on top of a cake. For the .01% of experinced brewers that know exactly what they are doing it might be OK, for everybody else, especially noobs, it is to be strongly discouraged.
BTW, I am the original grumpy old man.....just ask my girlfriend!
BTW, I am the original grumpy old man.....just ask my girlfriend!
WWBBD?
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Post #17 made 11 years ago
Think I might have been a bit OTT in that last post Todd 
. Why balance the scales with a feather when you can use a brick?
. Why balance the scales with a feather when you can use a brick? If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
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Post #18 made 11 years ago
The APA which was pitched onto an IPA yeast cake, after the IPA was pitched onto a Black IPA yeast cake turned out surprising well.
PP, you tasted the black IPA which was quite good, then the IPA which wasnt quite as good... not sure why, but we both knew it just wasn't up to scratch.
Well i kegged the APA, which incidently is not exactly pale and probably should just be called an american ale, and it tastes pretty damn good. Its picked up some of the flavor from the ipa which is great, but has its own unique flavour.
So the moral of this ramble.... dont try this at home.. and definitely dont pitch a lighter beer onto the yeast cake of two darker stronger beers or the universe may spontaniously combust, or maybe it wont
PP, you tasted the black IPA which was quite good, then the IPA which wasnt quite as good... not sure why, but we both knew it just wasn't up to scratch.
Well i kegged the APA, which incidently is not exactly pale and probably should just be called an american ale, and it tastes pretty damn good. Its picked up some of the flavor from the ipa which is great, but has its own unique flavour.
So the moral of this ramble.... dont try this at home.. and definitely dont pitch a lighter beer onto the yeast cake of two darker stronger beers or the universe may spontaniously combust, or maybe it wont
Post #19 made 11 years ago
With the varying styles of brewing, brewers, temperatures, length of mashes, water pH, quality of grain, timing of hop additions, quality of hops, yeast vigor and age. It's no wonder that each beer is like a set of finger prints. All different! All unique! Reusing yeast cakes is another variance. Reusing a yeast cake is a good and proper thing. You only have to remember to think ahead when reusing them. A few months ago BYO magazine had a article by Terry Foster about reusing the yeast cake and he had even laid out the order to brew in?
I think this is it. Good information I think I will have to reread it
http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/ ... techniques
I think this is it. Good information I think I will have to reread it
http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/ ... techniques
Last edited by BobBrews on 04 Dec 2012, 08:16, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #20 made 11 years ago
Nice link Bob . I like Ace's post as well re picking up the character of the last beer. Also...
. I like Ace's post as well re picking up the character of the last beer. Also..."...quite good?" That was excellent!!! I have fantasised about it a lot since then.Aces high wrote:PP, you tasted the black IPA which was quite good...
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Post #21 made 11 years ago
Well, I've found this thread after having dumped some new wort on top of a Fuller's WLP002 yeast cake, out of pure laziness. I've done it once before and it turned out well (the most vigorous fermentation I've ever seen). My problem is this; the first beer was an APA (about 35IBU from cascade and citra), and the second beer is a Milk Stout! Only time will tell whether I end up with undesirable citrussy flavours in the stout, or just some neutral bitterness. I suspect I might have a fairly weird beer on my hands - is American India Milk Stout a style?!
Post #22 made 11 years ago
non.operational,
The beer will be great! I think that Guinness adds soured beer to give Guinness it's distinctive twang? So why couldn't you give your milk stout a hop twang. If it's a bit to much at first it will mellow in time. I have a sweet milk stout that I have added cocoa nibs and coffee too. It's low alcohol (2.5%) I have it for breakfast every day! This beer reused a hopped beers yeast cake! Normally I would use a different yeast cake but "it was on hand"?
The beer will be great! I think that Guinness adds soured beer to give Guinness it's distinctive twang? So why couldn't you give your milk stout a hop twang. If it's a bit to much at first it will mellow in time. I have a sweet milk stout that I have added cocoa nibs and coffee too. It's low alcohol (2.5%) I have it for breakfast every day! This beer reused a hopped beers yeast cake! Normally I would use a different yeast cake but "it was on hand"?
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