Real Wort Starter?


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Real Wort Starter?

Post by joshua » 5 years ago

Good Day, When I No-Chill there is always around 1L-2L of wort in the trub.

I now use a fine strainer to seperate the trub from the hot wort, then cool the wort to 18C. It is really easy to chill 1-2L.

I then add my yeast to the cooled wort, and when it starts working, I place it into the 'Fridge. Covered with some plastic film. This slows done the growth.

The next day or so, when it is time to frement, I remove the starter from my 'Fridge , Warm it to the wort temperature, and Pitch.

The fermentation takes off in 2-3 hours and gets to full krausen in about 10-12 hours.

I contriol temps. until the fermentation is mostly done, and transfer to a secondary.

Does the extra work making a Real Wort Starter, make any sense???
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Post by stux » 5 years ago

I do a similar thing. But as I no chill, I can build up my yeast with a real wort slowly over time. One thing though, by the time I get the trub filtered/sieved its not very sanitary. I generally throw it in a fridge to store for a few days and then decant off the cold break.

I *have* seen signs of infection/fermentation in the starter, even in the fridge, so I would definatley be giving the starter a quick reboil at a minimum.

My process is pretty much, do the BIAB, fill my cube, then the entire kettle dregs gets poured through a sieve and into a suitably large container.

That goes into a fridge, then I decant the clear liquid a few days later. I then either boil it up a bit, possibly supplmenting with DME and making to 1.040 in erlenmeyer flasks, whence I then put it on my stirplate, for multiple steps quite possibly.

Alternatively, I double bag the wort in zip-lock bags and freeze for later use. Always with a reboil before use.
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Post by rockbotton » 5 years ago

I have been using about the same process as stux with the addition of adjusting the OG to about 1.040.
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Post by stux » 5 years ago

rockbotton wrote:I have been using about the same process as stux with the addition of adjusting the OG to about 1.040.
I do that too ;)
Last edited by stux on 04 Apr 2012, 23:05, edited 3 times in total.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
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On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
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Post by thughes » 5 years ago

I monitor gravity during the boil and when it hits @ 1.035 or so I draw off a quart, chill it, and then freeze it. I do this because I dump the entire brew pot (trub, break, etc) into the cube. I'll thaw that reserved wort a few days before I am ready to pitch, boil it for a few minutes, adjust gravity as necessary, and then use it for my starter.

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Post by joshua » 5 years ago

Good Day Guys, Thanks for your opinions!!!
In America, HomeBrewTalk is fighting about this process, Some like it, others Hate it.
It works well for me, and your opinions are very helpful!!
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Post by thughes » 5 years ago

Although the tide is starting to turn, it seems that over at HBT you will been seen as a complete heretic unless you have a full blown 3V rig and follow only traditional brewing procedures. God forbid you make your starter with something other than the traditional DME, using something other than a flask, and don't own a stirplate.

BIAB? That's for small stove top batches and beginners who want to eventually graduate to AG brewing.

No chill? That's a bad brewing practice that cannot possibly work. Everybody knows you'll have DMS problems and infections!

/end rant
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Post by joshua » 5 years ago

Good Day, I have done 60 BIAB batches and found the DMS/SMM stuff is boiled out from 45 minutes to 65 minutes, as the Sulfide(cabbage) oder is gone by 70 minutes.
So my first 10 batches HAD a DMS problem, maybe beacause I only boiled 60 minutes. Now I have no DMS problem!!!
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Post by Lylo » 5 years ago

Actually todd I do't find the/us HBTers nearly as bad as the AHA.WOW are they ever BIABaphobic!
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Post by Mad_Scientist » 4 years ago

Sorry to bump an old thread, I am thinking of making a real wort starter. I have about 57 ml of US-05 thick washed yeast.

I am planning on brewing a double batch tomorrow, about 9.5 gallons and have only one packet of US-05 and my washed yeast to use. Mrmalty says that I need 74 ml now, keeps changing as time goes by.

I plan on chilling and put 4.75 G into each corny fermenter. Can I delay adding the yeast one day? Would a 2 L real wort starter help me to build up the cell count in a 24 hour period? It is an ale, original gravity expected is 1.065, have 57 ml thick washed yeast, and harvest date of 3/2/2013.

I would dump the stir plate into corny #1 after 24 hours and add a packet of dry yeast into corny #2, 24 hours later. Do you think that will work?
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Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 15 Mar 2013, 23:08, edited 3 times in total.


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Post by joshua » 4 years ago

Good Day MS, if you can have a Liter/Quart od wort, and about 5 hours, you can take the Wort and add the yeast, Keep is near 70F/21C, and watch it after 3 hour to see If It is overflowing........

Works well for me if the Yeast is still good.
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Real Wort Starter?

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Post by mally » 4 years ago

MS - Could you cube your wort, until you have enough starter for 9.5G & save your sachet?

The pic looks like you have some healthy yeast there & no trub so (Mr malty) your "best case scenario" is approx 100ml slurry (twice what you have).
It seems reasonable then to be able to pitch the slurry you do have in one half & pitch the sachet in the other?

What i should have asked is - are you trying to make identical beers (but splitting them), doing side by side experiments, or are you just trying to make some nice drinkable beer?

If the latter then you should be ok, otherwise it's possible you will get different profiles from the yeast
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Post by Mad_Scientist » 4 years ago

joshua / mally, Thanks. I did a combination of both of your ideas.

I no-chilled my wort, I got 1600ml of 1.074 wort and added my 57ml thick yeast with some water, put that on a stir plate for 12 hours. It was going to town, pitched that in one fermenter, and added my packet of dry yeast in the other.

The bad news is, that I watched my stir bar go sailing into the fermenter. :lol:

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Post by Mad_Scientist » 4 years ago

I read the ziplock and freezing conversation. I am now interested in brewing enough volume to have extra wort for real wort starters. I am thinking in terms of a small no-chill jug, a baby cube. What do you think of something like this? http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.a ... &catid=611

EDIT: The shipping costs 16 times more than the product. :dunno:
Any recommendations on another over-the-counter (local product) for a HDPE cube holding ~ 32oz.

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Post by mally » 4 years ago

I read the ziplock and freezing conversation.
Not sure of this do you have a link?

However, do you throw away your trub after boil? If so, you may have enough wort in that to use as a starter? Otherwise your method sounds good to me.

A method I use (amongst others) that works well is to cube my hot wort, then tip the trub from the kettle into a funnel lined with paper/kitchen towel & collect the strained wort.
I have collected well over a litre doing this, & you can easily freeze/store & and or boil it to sanitize before use.

Those "no glug jugs" look useful, but here in the UK that could be easily misconstrued!
Last edited by mally on 04 Apr 2013, 14:48, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Mad_Scientist » 4 years ago

I decided to get (2 each) 1 L cubes, for no chilling wort, for making starters. I got these here. On bigger brews over a 1.060, I plan on doing real wort starters.

For a double batch (10 G), coming in at a 1.065, I plan on diluting my 2 L of wort to a gravity of 1.040, toss in two packets of US-05 and fully ferment it for two days, then chill to settle the yeast, decant most of the finished beer off, then swish the yeast and pour the slurry into 2 small jars (I ferment in 2 vessels) to eyeball equal amounts for both fermenters.

Does this sound like a 'best practice'? I have to come up with a 4 L starter jar now, any ideas?

First dilute the wort ***
Dilution Calculator.jpg
Yeast and Starter info ***
Yeast Pitch Rate and Starter Calculator.jpg
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Post by Lylo » 4 years ago

Sometimes you can get 1 gallon jars from bars and restuarants, Think "pickled eggs".
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Post by Mad_Scientist » 4 years ago

I scored a 1 gallon wide mouth container from Lenny's Sub Shop. It is not flat on the bottom, but has a tiny cone shape with a tit. I can get my stir bar to ride on the top. With dark and cloudy wort inside I'll have to just look for the vortex.

Hope it doesn't taste like hot pepper relish. :lol:

EDIT: Forgot to say that it is a #1 plastic.


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Post by 2trout » 3 years ago

Bumping an old thread again.

We do a bit of canning around here, and have some quart canning jars around. Is there a problem with this scenario for a real wort starter?

1.Just post boil at flame out, fill a quart canning jar 3/4 full of wort, cap it, and turn upside down to sterilize all with hot wort (canning jars are made to be boiled, pressure cooked, etc.)

When this jar has cooled to pitching temp, Pitch my dry yeast into the jar, and replace the current jar lid with one that has a fermentation lock.

When fermentation has taken off( and I now know my yeast is alive,) dump this larger yeast starter into my now cooled wort.

Is this valid, dumb, or even really necessary? Are starters even really necessary?

Off to drain my bag! :P

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Post by Lylo » 3 years ago

There should be nothing wrong with this method but wait at for the high krausen to form and you will have the healthiest most active little guys available.
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Post by 2trout » 3 years ago

Thanks man!
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Post by shibolet » 3 years ago

2trout,
what type of yeast are u refering to? dry or liquid?
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
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Post by Mad_Scientist » 3 years ago

2trout wrote: Pitch my dry yeast into the jar.........
Hey Trout, the school of thought on using dry yeast is to rehydrate it, while others sprinkle it.

For example: Based on the book, "Brewing Classic Styles" by Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer, if I have 5 gallons of clear wort at an OG of 1.065, it requires 12 grams of properly rehydrated dry yeast. They agree with Dr. Clayton Cone (20 billion live yeast cells per gram).


Mr. Malty's Pitching Rate Calculator™ by Jamil Zainasheff.
MS Mrmalty.jpg

I like to go with a higher pitch rate on ales over 1.060 by using the "Pro Brewer 1.0" according to Brewer's Friend;
"The Target Pitch rate drop down has the following values:
•Minimum manufacturer's recommendation: 0.35 (ale only, fresh yeast only)
•Middle of the road Pro Brewer 0.75 (ale)
•Pro Brewer 1.00 (high gravity ale)
•Pro Brewer 1.50 (minimum for lager)
•Pro Brewer 2.0 (high gravity lager)
We recommend 0.75 for ales below 1.060 / 15 Plato. High gravity is considered above 1.060 / 15 Plato. Double those numbers for lagers."

In this example I would use 1 1/2 packets of dry yeast. (bottom image)
MS Brewers Friend.jpg
I rehydrate in a quart canning jar and that in a water bath to maintain 100F temp. for 30 mins. I will boil tap water, then cool to 100F and put 200 ml in the jar. After swishing the jar around and there is a slurry, I slowly pour and stir in cooled wort that is at the pitching temp. until it's near the top (attemperate).

"rehydrating dry yeast"

some good links;
http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://koehlerbeer.com/2008/06/07/rehyd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... yton-cone/
http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... alculator/

My [MS] 'best practice' for rehydration includes this from Dr. Clayton Cone (THE LINK ABOVE);
QUOTE: "At 95 – 105 F, there is
100% recovery of the viable dry yeast."

QUOTE: "We recommend that the rehydrated yeast be added to the wort within 30
minutes. We have built into each cell a large amount of glycogen and
trehalose that give the yeast a burst of energy to kick off the growth
cycle when it is in the wort. It is quickly used up if the yeast is
rehydrated for more than 30 minutes. There is no damage done here if it is
not immediatly add to the wort. You just do not get the added benefit of
that sudden burst of energy. We also recommend that you attemperate the
rehydrated yeast to with in 15F of the wort before adding to the wort.
Warm yeast into a cold wort will cause many of the yeast to produce petite
mutants that will never grow or ferment properly and will cause them to
produce H2S. The attemperation can take place over a very brief period by
adding, in encrements, a small amount of the cooler wort to the rehydrated
yeast."

:peace:
MS
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Post by shibolet » 3 years ago

or in short,
don't make a starter for dry yeast. but do rehydrate dry yeast.
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:

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