Citra Summer Ale

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Citra Summer Ale

Post by Beer@22 » 3 years ago

Hi all

I'd like to get a nice light but hoppy summer ale going this weekend ... now that the summer's over in England :roll:

How does this look for a BIAB no-chill recipe? I'm sorry I haven't used the BIABacus, but I'm still getting to grips with it. I guess I must be doing something wrong, but I cannot get it to calculate IBU and OG from an original recipe. I have used BrewMate to calculate these details for me and I've shown the percentages and quantities of grain and hops below for 23L VAW. I hope Pat doesn't beat me up too badly for my inability to use the BIABacus :thumbs:

Citra Summer Ale (English IPA)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.050 (°P): 12.4
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (°P): 3.3
Alcohol (ABV): 4.91 %
Colour (SRM): 9.7 (EBC): 19.0
Bitterness (IBU): 41.7 (Tinseth - No Chill Adjusted)

[4400g] 89.8% Maris Otter Malt
[300g] 6.12% Crystal 80
[200g] 4.08% Wheat Malt

[10g] 0.4 g/L Citra (14% Alpha) @ 75 Minutes (Boil)
[10g] 0.4 g/L Citra (14% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)
[25g] 1.1 g/L Citra (14% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma)

[half tablet] 0.0 g/L Protafloc @ 10 Minutes (Boil)

Single step Infusion at 67°C for 90 Minutes. Boil for 90 Minutes

Fermented at 20°C with Safale US-05
Last edited by Beer@22 on 27 Aug 2014, 16:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Mad_Scientist » 3 years ago

Welcome to BIABrewer!

I made an example of Section D of how it might look. Rick and I enter 12 mins. for our 0 mins. hops to calculate approximately a 9% utilization factor. It's just one way to do it. We both no chill also. You can go 15 to 30 mins.(also known as a hop stand) before you transfer your wort into the container.

*= 0m actual flame out addition. (12m is for bittering calculation. Use main bag as hop sock, pull and squeeze after 15m of 192-212F hop steep.)
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Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 28 Aug 2014, 07:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Mad_Scientist » 3 years ago

I found this. I must say the red head got my attention first, so I read the write-up.

Now I'm thirsty, hungry and needing some, er... :argh:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/pairing-bee ... afood.html


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Post by PistolPatch » 3 years ago

Beer@22, you may have seen that I was working on an answer to your question here but I'm going to have to re-write it and lay it out a different way for it to be easy to read so give me a bit longer and I'll write it up as a proper article.

Suffice to say for now that it is not you are to blame for finding it so hard ot match the numbers between two programs. It is rather poor design and terminology that leads to this problem and not too many brewers are aware of it so you are doing well to have asked this question...
Beer@22 wrote:I'm sorry I haven't used the BIABacus, but I'm still getting to grips with it. I guess I must be doing something wrong, but I cannot get it to calculate IBU and OG from an original recipe.
I'll post back here when I have the article done.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 31 Aug 2014, 09:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by PistolPatch » 3 years ago

Okay,the problem I am having here is that a lot of the answer is written already behind the scenes in the BIABacus help which you'll get in a few weeks so rather than spending a lot of time re-writing a lot of that, I'll do a fast answer for you instead. (This will also save me drinking a lot of beer :)). Here you go...

Matching Numbers between Programs - Fast Answer

Here are the man reasons why you might find that numbers are different from one bit of software to another...

Volumes do not Match - Apples and Oranges

Make sure that you are comparing the 'Volume of Ambient Wort - VAW' (or end of boil volume once cooled to ambient temperature) of the recipes. It is no use comparing the 'Volumes into Fermentor - VIF' as these ignore kettle trub which can vary greatly from the original brewer to you.

Terminology Problem 1: In most recipe reports in software, magazines and forums, it is usually impossible to determiner the VAW. Usually they just say something like 'Batch Size' and this can mean anything from VAW to VIF. Trying to work out what they mean will be your first major hurdle.

Efficiencies do not Match

It is not necessary to know the efficiency of an original recipe when copying it. Your system will not be the same as the original brewer's so matching efficiencies should only ever be coincidental. If for interest's sake however you do want the weights of your fermentable to match, then you will need to ensure that your kettle efficiencies are the same. It is no good using fermentor efficiency as this does not account for kettle trub.

Terminology Problem 2: In most recipe reports in software, magazines and forums, it is usually impossible to determiner whether they are referring to a kettle efficiency (such as EIB or EAW) or fermentor efficiency. Usually they just say 'Efficiency' and this can mean either of the two. Trying to work out what they mean will be your first major hurdle.

Fermentable 'Sugar' Specs do not Match

The BIABacus uses a default 'sugar' spec for fermentables. This can be over-ridden in Section Y. If you want to make sure your fermentable exactly match between programs, you will have to ensure that they are using the same specs.

Terminology Problem 3: Often the terminology used to describe the grain spec is vague such as 'Yield'. This can mean any number of things.

Formula Errors 1: Some widely used software has errors in this department. For example, if you changed the moisture of a grain from say 0% to 50% then the amount of 'sugar' per kg/lb available should halve. In some programs nothing happens. This can commonly cause discrepancies of about 4% on all-grain recipes.

IBU's do not Match

The first issue to deal with here is to make sure that you have solved the volumes question (see 'Volumes do not match,' above). Assuming you have, then the next question is are you comparing the same IBU's?...

Terminology Problem 4: There are at least five types of IBU's; laboratory measured, perceived, estimated using Tinseth formula, estimated using Rager formula and estimated using Garetz formula. If the original software report does not say what system is used then it is useless to try and compare the IBU's. The following poc shows how widely the estimated IBU's can vary on the same recipe using three different formulas...
Beersmith 2 - RGT.jpg
Formula Errors 2: Some software, including major software has errors in their IBU formulas. For example, they use the gravity at the start of the boil instead of the end of the boil and/or the volume into fermentor instead of the end of boil volume once cooled to ambient for their calculations.
Summary
As you can see from the above, it takes a lot of work to compare one program's numbers to another. The above may explain why much thought, over many years, has gone into the creation of the Clear Brewing Terminology - CBT developed here at BIABRewer.info

Unambiguous terminology would have avoided all the problems outlined above and saved thousands of brewers like yourself developing itchy head syndrome, also known as wtf syndrome :scratch:.

:P
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 31 Aug 2014, 15:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Beer@22 » 3 years ago

Hi all

I'm really sorry it's taken so long for me to reply. I've been really busy and I've not had a chance to reply. Anyway, thanks guys for the replies, there's some very useful info up there, and I'm sure it will help me out a great deal.

I had two questions initially. The first being 'will this beer taste any good'. I can answer that myself now that the beer's in a Corny keg ..... yep, tastes good to me! :clap:

My second question was regarding the BIABacus. Pat did a great job describing many of the details, but I'm still stuck on one fundamental detail. When I'm making up my own recipe, can the BIABacus tell me the OG and IBUs based on the grain and hop quantities? So let's say I aim for 23L VAW and I start with 4kg of Maris Otter malt and some bittering hops at the start of the boil, can the BIABacus tell me the OG based on the extract potential of the malt, and the IBUs based on the alpha acids and duration of boil of the hops? I can then start adding in more grain and more hop additions to get to my target OG, colour and IBU. At the moment I'm using other brewing software to do these calculations, but I'd love to just use the BIABacus right from the start without using any other software.

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Post by Mad_Scientist » 3 years ago

Beer@22 wrote:

My second question was regarding the BIABacus. Pat did a great job describing many of the details, but I'm still stuck on one fundamental detail. When I'm making up my own recipe, can the BIABacus tell me the OG and IBUs based on the grain and hop quantities? So let's say I aim for 23L VAW and I start with 4kg of Maris Otter malt and some bittering hops at the start of the boil, can the BIABacus tell me the OG based on the extract potential of the malt, and the IBUs based on the alpha acids and duration of boil of the hops? I can then start adding in more grain and more hop additions to get to my target OG, colour and IBU. At the moment I'm using other brewing software to do these calculations, but I'd love to just use the BIABacus right from the start without using any other software.
Yes it can.

As you say though, "to get to my target OG", you need to enter that first into Section C, then 4000 grams of grain.

Enter your "target" VAW into Section D.

Then play 20 questions, in Section B to find the VIF.

I did it in less than 1 minute. :)
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 17 Sep 2014, 02:09, edited 1 time in total.


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Post by joshua » 3 years ago

M_s, One thing I like is you can Enter the Percent Ratio of the Grains into the "Original Fermentable Bill Design"...

As say, 75% Maris Otter, and 25% Caramel'40'.. and get the O.G.
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