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When to add hops with no chill for NRB's All Amarillo Americ

Post #1 made 9 years ago
by jube
Hi there,

Just finished my first biab today brewing 25lt of the APA featured in your spreadsheet (NRB's All Amarillo American Pale Ale). It all seemed to come out OK, even if my mash was a few degrees hotter for the first 5 minutes or so. Hopefully nothing to stress about.

But anyway, my question. Today I chilled my brew with a heat exchanger pumping water from a pond, but this week I'm giving a demonstration at my university with the hope of setting up a homebrew club for students, (I'm a teacher), and there isn't really much water I can use so the best option would be no chill.
The question...when should I add the hops? Originally for this recipe with a 90min boil the hops are added at 60, 20 and 5 minutes but I read somewhere that for nochill everything should be delayed for 20mins to make up for the fact that it will all be hotter for a lot longer. I can understand putting in the buttering hops at 40mins, the flavouring hops at 1minutes, but those that were originally at 5mins? Cold addition later?

Does anyone have any idea what I should do, I don't really want to mess this up?:o

Also, for nochill what do you usually do about the trub? After flameout do I give the wort a big swirl and let it settle for five minutes then drain what I can using a syphon? Should I have the lid on or off at this stage? I can't imagine too many nasties will get in until 70 degrees or less, and if I put it in a disinfected container I hope it won't be a problem.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

By the way, I'm not looking to store the wort for a long time, it will be fermented in a couple of days.

Thanks in advance.

Jube

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Post #2 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Congratulations jube :party: :drink: :clap:,

I have done a side by side of this recipe. On one kettle, I started chilling with an immersion chiller, 5 minutes after flame-out and the other was no-chilled. We did a triangle test on it later and you'll see here that we could draw no firm conclusions.

So, personally, I wouldn't worry about doing any adjustment jube and I would be very wary of following the generic recommendations you find on this on the internet. (For example, the 60 minute versus 40 minute recommendation is just plain incorrect - there is a difference between wort that is boiling and wort that is between 80 to 100C but it also depends on the hops being used. There really are no good generic answers at this point in time.)

At flame-out, there is no need to give the wort a swirl. In fact, don't do that. Just let it settle. If you syphon, you must use silicone hose, no other type of hose. You will need to use a jiggler syphon with it to make it a bit more elegant, otherwise you'll be holding your thumb over the hose to 'jump' start it. Make sure you have some thick rubber gloves on the day. Just start your syphoning about five minutes after the boil. I generally leave the lid on as I am outside but I err on the side of caution.

Some people drain will the wort into the cube and, like all things in brewing, there are often two different points of view on this. So, don't be worried if you end up with some trub in the cube and ferementor. It could be a good thing. Who knows? (See here.)

That is great you are getting a club togetehr. We'll hope you keep us posted on how it all goes.

:luck:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 22 Jun 2014, 13:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #3 made 9 years ago
by jube
Hi PistolPatch,

Thanks for your reply - its always nice to have the opinion of someone who has done a side by side comparison especially when no noticeable difference could be seen. :-)

Regarding to swirl or not - the advantage as I see it of swirling is I get a big pile of trub in the middle of the wort which I can skillfully ;-) sort of avoid by sucking at the edges. In fact yesterday, I ran the last trub and all through a cloth filter anyway so my 'trub wastage' was probably about 100mls. :-) Yeah, I know it is a bit miserly. Without swirling I suppose this all goes to the bottom and initially I don't like that idea but if I'm going to filter it anyway (usually only the last 2 litres or so - otherwise the cloth gets blocked up too early), I can't see that it will make much difference if the trub is in a heap or not.

I also read through your past post on this:

Finding the Balance

Like a lot of things in brewing, there is not enough information to have the perfect answer for every beer style. I think my favourite quote, not sure if it is scientifically correct or not, was from a pro brewer, "Yeast like trub like we like candy but it's not necessarily good for them."

Before we get to a final bit of advice, we also need to consider what one means by trub. If I have used a hopsock and dump all my kettle contents into the fermentor, that is entirely different from someone who doesn't use a hopsock and dumps all their trub into the fermentor. That is a big difference.

Here is what I think is sensible practice...

1. Do everything you can to reduce hop trub. Using your BIAB bag as a hop sock works really well.
2. Don't try and get every last drop of liquid from your kettle. Plan and allow for some wastage.
3. Don't go to clumsy or difficult lengths to avoid some cloudy wort going into your fermentor. For example, filtering through cloths etc is likely to cause you a whole lot of other potential problems.

Finally for no-chillers. Do number 1 above for sure but be less worried about everything else going into the cube. This will settle out.
One other thing I noticed is that even 5 minutes after flame out there still seems to be a lot of gunk turning over in the wort - I can imagine there are thermal currents going on as the sides cool and sink to the bottom, etc, which keeps a lot of stuff suspended.

Maybe I'll take Bob's advice: :-)
A quick note on this. Don't worry about any of this. Reading all the crap by so called "Experts" is very misleading. If you get some trub in your fermenter all the better. Trube provides nutrients and settles to the bottom with (Irish moss) or other clarifiers. I have transferred all the trub or most of the trub. The result is the same. Clear wort without any off flavors. Don't over think this stuff. Brewing is easy (at our level) and needs very little work.
Thanks again for your efforts.
Last edited by jube on 22 Jun 2014, 15:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #4 made 9 years ago
by BobBrews
listen here,
iTunes | Streaming mp3

July 5, 2012 - No Chill Experiment
Home brewers Bob Stempski and Noam Shalev compare beers brewed with traditional chilling techniques with no-chill batches.

iTunes | Streaming mp3
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?p ... radio-2012

Also,,,,
July 18, 2013 - No Chill Aging Experiment
Bob Stempski returns with another no-chill experiment. This time, how does storing unpitched no-chill wort for four months affect the final product?
Also a new one coming in JULY 2014!!!!
Last edited by BobBrews on 23 Jun 2014, 04:35, edited 1 time in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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Post #5 made 9 years ago
by jube
Thanks I'll give that a listen.

By the way what is the alcohol content of NRB's All Amarillo APA?


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Post #6 made 9 years ago
by BobBrews
jube,

I never brewed it. But it varies from 4.50 to 6.20 so maybe 5.35 ABV?
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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Post #7 made 9 years ago
by jube
July seems to be the nochill experiment month on basic brewing radio. :-)

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Post #8 made 9 years ago
by BobBrews
Jube,

We meet at the NHC each year in June (wherever it's held?) Next year I will have to do something different! I hope next month's broadcast sounds OK? I don't remember much?
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #9 made 9 years ago
by mally
I listened to both of those Bob.
Was this years held in your presidential suite again?
Did you have any backup, or were you on your own against Andy, Zot, Steve & James?
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #10 made 9 years ago
by BobBrews
mally,
Was this years held in your presidential suite again?
Did you have any backup, or were you on your own against Andy, Zot, Steve & James?
It was held in my suite again so I didn't have to carry all the marked cups, beer, cheese curds and sausages! Zot and I went out drinking with Andy, Steve & James. The podcast was without Zot this time? I think? Things were fuzzy for three days! I am still drinking the Botulism beer. I haven't died yet! I think? Things are fuzzy for the last few days! :lol:
Last edited by BobBrews on 23 Jun 2014, 21:05, edited 1 time in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #11 made 9 years ago
by jube
A quick update on my demonstration brewday at university. It pretty much all went OK, all gravities lined up with recipe.
In the end I went with a borrowed immersion chiller for cooling instead of nochill, my reasoning being that the students can see the process of sanitation and casting in the yeast mixture.

I got the chance to try out a little pump for circulating iced water through the immersion chiller, which worked well although I managed to destroy my office's 12V transformer for the scanner. :-( with the pump.

Although in retrospect maybe nochill might have been better. It is always a dilemma about how a@#l one should be regarding sanitation and slightly frustrating to explain how after the boil it is really important that the wort doesn't get contaminated, and sanitise the fermenter in front of them, and then have them gripping the inside of the fermenter while watching the wort being syphoned in.
Likewise I always wonder what the risk is with contamination with a heap of people staring into the wort and 'chewing the fat', with all associated sprays of bacteria laden spittle.

Maybe a case of sanitation paranoia... :-(

With no chill at least, this wouldn't have been a problem, but as I said at the beginning it was good for them to see the whole process.

Oh well, fingers crossed it didn't get too much contamination and the yeast can do its thing.
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