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Post #28 made 9 years ago
by Rick
I have this on standby, so I'll let you know if I get to it before you. Next up is a belgian blond, and then I go after this one!
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Post #29 made 9 years ago
by phytenphyre
I have had to put all of my brewing on standby over the past several months. I have been preparing for a promotion and it took all of my time. Well, the process is complete so I am now trying to get back in the swing of things.

1. The Zombie Dust was...dumped down the drain. : ( Super long story, but I found out refractometers do not read correctly with alcohol present...oops.
2. B-fast stout is "cellaring" until this coming fall. I haven't had one since I bottled so I am itching to see how it is progressing.
3. I will be RE-brewing my Zombie Dust clone this month sometime.
Primary: Zombie Dust Clone, 3rd BIAB
Secondary:
Bottle: Black IPA, Sock Monkey Stout, Hop Burst IPA
Wish List:12 months/12 brews

Post #30 made 9 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
phytenphyre wrote:
1. The Zombie Dust was...dumped down the drain. : ( Super long story, but I found out refractometers do not read correctly with alcohol present...oops.
Welcome back.

Just a note about refractometers. Get a Brix reading, "Original Gravity" as a starting point first, then with a calculator tool, you CAN use your refractometer on subsequent readings after the yeast is added.

Linky; http://brew.stderr.net/refractometer.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As in this screen shot of mine, I was trying to make a point to Yooper from HBT.
There was many non-believers. :o
Image
4/14/2013 by Mad Scientist Brewhaus, on Flickr

A Hydro reading matched my refractometer
Image
4/14/2013 by Mad Scientist Brewhaus, on Flickr

Sample was at 64 F degrees
Image
4/14/2013 by Mad Scientist Brewhaus, on Flickr
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 04 Sep 2014, 02:47, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #31 made 9 years ago
by nicko
Rick wrote:Ah, just spotted this at the bottom of the post ...

"The FWH addition's IBUs are calculated as a 20 minute addition to better calculate the perceived IBUs. They are boiled the whole 60 minutes. "

I knew there would be a reason, considering the amount of pages that thread has. No way a mistake like this would have made it so far. This brings us to 62 IBU's, but I don't know that I agree with the logic here. Anyway, mystery solved.
Hi Rick, I'm going to have a crack at this recipe this weekend. So this recipe should or shouldn't be FWH when boiling for 90 minutes? Apparently there's something 'magical' about doing FWH, but in this case should they be added at 60 minutes or FWH? I thought 60 minutes extracts all the possible bitterness, or will boiling for 90 minutes extract a little more? Sorry still learning...

Thank you!
Last edited by nicko on 19 Sep 2014, 13:06, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #32 made 9 years ago
by Rick
nicko wrote:
Rick wrote:Ah, just spotted this at the bottom of the post ...

"The FWH addition's IBUs are calculated as a 20 minute addition to better calculate the perceived IBUs. They are boiled the whole 60 minutes. "

I knew there would be a reason, considering the amount of pages that thread has. No way a mistake like this would have made it so far. This brings us to 62 IBU's, but I don't know that I agree with the logic here. Anyway, mystery solved.
Hi Rick, I'm going to have a crack at this recipe this weekend. So this recipe should or shouldn't be FWH when boiling for 90 minutes? Apparently there's something 'magical' about doing FWH, but in this case should they be added at 60 minutes or FWH? I thought 60 minutes extracts all the possible bitterness, or will boiling for 90 minutes extract a little more? Sorry still learning...

Thank you!

I wouldn't over think it if I were you, because I'm likely about to. I tend to FWH all of my APA/IPA styles, because I want to do everything I can to appeal to folks who don't typically enjoy the style. It's also a personal preference of mine, so it works out. What I shoot for is a refined man's beer, and not anything too aggressive. Not to say the difference of either method for this brew will achieve one or the other, it's just my thought process which goes into my recipe design on a few levels.

Citra has been known to produce weird flavors when used for bittering, so this might prompt me to FWH as well considering it's being used for bittering. People also say this about Galaxy (my most used IPA hop to date), which I totally disagree with ... so take that with a grain of salt.

Sharper bittering is something I like to save for the doubles and imperials, so I'd shy away from FWH on that style. This is really a personal thing, so you have to ask yourself what you want to achieve here.

I recently tried actual ZD, and it was pretty smooth. I can't be certain, but my tongue says they probably FWH.

Also, my previous reply to you was my responding to the beer in the thread title, thought you meant BS. Oops! I should have back read this thread a bit and realized there was more going on. My bad.

As for IBU numbers, I haven't seen anything cited but it's bandied about forums that FWH does actually produce more IBU's when measured in a lab. But, the perception of bitterness is lower.

My opinion is that sharp bitterness is usually fleeting, doesn't last long. FWH is lower, but lingers for quite a bit (I use higher sulfate levels and brew dryer beer, so YMMV.)

Almost 1.5 years straight of brewing hoppy ales and that's my current opinion. ALthough, next up I'm double batching a 10% imeperial IPA with ... wait for it ... wait for it ... and English Old Ale!!

Going to get Old Treacle Mine (from BCS) cellared for next christmas.

I'm going crazy with the imperial, going to be 1.090 OG ... over lb of hops. Two hop stands (one for bittering, and another <120F)

Okay so I'm rambling, your fault for making me think of delicious hops.
Last edited by Rick on 19 Sep 2014, 20:47, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #33 made 9 years ago
by nicko
That's great thanks Rick, I was keen to try FWH anyway and smooth bitterness sounds ideal.

I just did a brew with just galaxy a while back, what a lovely hop!

Ok ZD clone, with FWH coming up.. If only I'd remebered to check the post today for hops...damn!
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Post #34 made 9 years ago
by HbgBill
Rick wrote:I have this on standby, so I'll let you know if I get to it before you. Next up is a belgian blond, and then I go after this one!
Rick, if you don't mind, please publish what you end up doing with this FBS. I'm really a stout fan.. in more ways than one :D.. but Founders BS has always interested me. I'd like to try one small batch.. like a 2.5g batch.. to see what it would be like.

I'm currently a week and a half into a Firestone Walker Velvet Merlin "clone" FWIW :) Can't wait to bottle and age that one for a bit.
Last edited by HbgBill on 19 Sep 2014, 23:36, edited 2 times in total.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #35 made 9 years ago
by Rick
HbgBill wrote:
Rick wrote:I have this on standby, so I'll let you know if I get to it before you. Next up is a belgian blond, and then I go after this one!
Rick, if you don't mind, please publish what you end up doing with this FBS. I'm really a stout fan.. in more ways than one :D.. but Founders BS has always interested me. I'd like to try one small batch.. like a 2.5g batch.. to see what it would be like.

I'm currently a week and a half into a Firestone Walker Velvet Merlin "clone" FWIW :) Can't wait to bottle and age that one for a bit.
Sure, I'll publish my BIABacus once I get things sorted. This project has taken a new direction though, so you may not have interest after I catch you up to my latest developments.

The BYO recipe is really far off from what we call "high integrity", so I've been readjusting my file with some BCS influence. If I'm honest, nothing is really looking right to me though. This will be my first attempt at this style, so it might be a while before I settle on something.

I may just scale up the gravity of McQuaker's Oatmeal Stout from BCS for the base recipe, or even use the Russian Imperial parameters (they seem close for this beer) to wing it with the listed ingredients from BYO. Suggestions welcome, I'm basically a n00b again considering this is my first go at a stout.

As far as the coffee, my favorite is Trader Joe's Ethiopian, and I plan to use that for mine. So really, I'm not much doing a clone here, but trying to make something just like it ... but mine.
Last edited by Rick on 20 Sep 2014, 00:22, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #36 made 9 years ago
by HbgBill
Actually, McQuakers is pretty dern good. I have done it once and am working on a modified version of that now to push toward the Merlin. I've upped the BRB and oatmeal significantly above McQ's.. but, I have yet to taste the results as it is still in primary. I have not used coffee in any beer yet.. but get notes from the grains.. same with chocolate nibs. I have some.. but never used them as I get some chocolate from the grains.
Bill
Hop Song Brewing-Santa Rosa, California

Post #37 made 9 years ago
by cwier60
Mad_Scientist wrote:Just a note about refractometers. Get a Brix reading, "Original Gravity" as a starting point first, then with a calculator tool, you CAN use your refractometer on subsequent readings after the yeast is added.

Linky; http://brew.stderr.net/refractometer.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sorry, MS, I'm not following you around trying to correct you, but I want to point out that that refractometer calculator is obsolete and incorrect. Check this thread for my reference to Sean Terrill's updated calculations that appear to be much more accurate.
Rick wrote:Sharper bittering is something I like to save for the doubles and imperials, so I'd shy away from FWH on that style. This is really a personal thing, so you have to ask yourself what you want to achieve here.
I think the merits of FWH are still up in the air. Gordon Strong has been very outspoken about the magical virtues of FWH but with no logical reason for why it delivers a smoother bittering. I have tried it a few times and am not convinced either way, but I'm not sure it's much different from a (harsh) 90 min addition. James Spencer on BBR has recently had a guest report in a 2-part interview presentation that FWH is essentially equivalent to a long and bitter boil, and Jamil Zainasheff has been adamantly outspoken on the BN that FWH has no merits and provides nothing but a very bitter result (essentially equivalent to a 90 min addition).

I'm not trying to contradict Rick, but I think you shouldn't take it as gospel that FWH delivers a less harsh smoother bittering. There are very respectable brewers on both sides of this fence.
Last edited by cwier60 on 20 Sep 2014, 10:21, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #38 made 9 years ago
by nicko
cwier60 wrote:
Mad_Scientist wrote:Just a note about refractometers. Get a Brix reading, "Original Gravity" as a starting point first, then with a calculator tool, you CAN use your refractometer on subsequent readings after the yeast is added.

Linky; http://brew.stderr.net/refractometer.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sorry, MS, I'm not following you around trying to correct you, but I want to point out that that refractometer calculator is obsolete and incorrect. Check this thread for my reference to Sean Terrill's updated calculations that appear to be much more accurate.
Rick wrote:Sharper bittering is something I like to save for the doubles and imperials, so I'd shy away from FWH on that style. This is really a personal thing, so you have to ask yourself what you want to achieve here.
I think the merits of FWH are still up in the air. Gordon Strong has been very outspoken about the magical virtues of FWH but with no logical reason for why it delivers a smoother bittering. I have tried it a few times and am not convinced either way, but I'm not sure it's much different from a (harsh) 90 min addition. James Spencer on BBR has recently had a guest report in a 2-part interview presentation that FWH is essentially equivalent to a long and bitter boil, and Jamil Zainasheff has been adamantly outspoken on the BN that FWH has no merits and provides nothing but a very bitter result (essentially equivalent to a 90 min addition).

I'm not trying to contradict Rick, but I think you shouldn't take it as gospel that FWH delivers a less harsh smoother bittering. There are very respectable brewers on both sides of this fence.
It would be interesting after removing the BIAB bag, to split the sweet liquour into two, FWH one batch and do a 60 minute addition on the other, using the same amounts of hops etc and see how it goes. We'd need someone that has two kettles though, i'm not sure what (if anything) resting half the sweet liquour would actually do to it while the other half is boiled.

I might start a thread, this sounds like something Bob would have done but I haven't found anything yet. I'll keep searching.
Last edited by nicko on 20 Sep 2014, 10:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #41 made 9 years ago
by nicko
joshua wrote:Nicko, To take another quick trip Off Topic...

Check viewforum.php?f=50

For "No-Chill" to save the Un-Used "Mash water" for later usage.
Hi Josh, I no-chill by storing wort in cubes, I ferment in the cube too, it's easy and works well I think.

You lost me at mash water, do you mean wort?

http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2685
Last edited by nicko on 20 Sep 2014, 13:55, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #42 made 9 years ago
by Rick
cwier60 wrote:
Mad_Scientist wrote:Just a note about refractometers. Get a Brix reading, "Original Gravity" as a starting point first, then with a calculator tool, you CAN use your refractometer on subsequent readings after the yeast is added.

Linky; http://brew.stderr.net/refractometer.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sorry, MS, I'm not following you around trying to correct you, but I want to point out that that refractometer calculator is obsolete and incorrect. Check this thread for my reference to Sean Terrill's updated calculations that appear to be much more accurate.
Rick wrote:Sharper bittering is something I like to save for the doubles and imperials, so I'd shy away from FWH on that style. This is really a personal thing, so you have to ask yourself what you want to achieve here.
I think the merits of FWH are still up in the air. Gordon Strong has been very outspoken about the magical virtues of FWH but with no logical reason for why it delivers a smoother bittering. I have tried it a few times and am not convinced either way, but I'm not sure it's much different from a (harsh) 90 min addition. James Spencer on BBR has recently had a guest report in a 2-part interview presentation that FWH is essentially equivalent to a long and bitter boil, and Jamil Zainasheff has been adamantly outspoken on the BN that FWH has no merits and provides nothing but a very bitter result (essentially equivalent to a 90 min addition).

I'm not trying to contradict Rick, but I think you shouldn't take it as gospel that FWH delivers a less harsh smoother bittering. There are very respectable brewers on both sides of this fence.
I'm aware of this, and chose my words rather carefully in order to not misguide.

Edit: with that said I actually don't agree with them. FWH to me, is different ... not that I have tons of experience, but I still think there is merit to it. Pretty big difference in my half assed "experiment" back in Dec.
Last edited by Rick on 20 Sep 2014, 16:52, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #43 made 9 years ago
by Rick
cweir, now that I'm thinking about this again I remember seeing this .pdf. FWH Experiment starts on page 29, and also falls in line with the BBR findings.

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content ... nyConn.pdf

I only had 4 people on my tasting panel, and we all thought the FWH was smoother. Of course, coming clean there were some differences. In the kettle, both beers were identical. However,

- one batch was kegged and the other bottled.
- I also dry hopped them differently, figuring I could see how substituting half the Galaxy with cascade would fare (for the kegged batch). Aroma vs. Bitterness, but still not the best idea to change things. My focus on the FWH test wasn't what it should have been.
- some grains got into the boil from kegged batch.

*FWH/Kegged, way more aromatic and smooth lasting bitterness.
*Boil addition/Bottled , sharp spike of bitterness. (hop aromas lasted longer in this batch, but I attribute that to the fact there was more of the potent Galaxy)

Nothing to live by, but it's enough to keep me stubborn about it. :headhit:

Columbus was the bittering hop.
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Post #44 made 9 years ago
by nicko
Rick wrote:cweir, now that I'm thinking about this again I remember seeing this .pdf. FWH Experiment starts on page 29, and also falls in line with the BBR findings.

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... nyConn.pdf

I only had 4 people on my tasting panel, and we all thought the FWH was smoother. Of course, coming clean there were some differences. In the kettle, both beers were identical. However,

- one batch was kegged and the other bottled.
- I also dry hopped them differently, figuring I could see how substituting half the Galaxy with cascade would fare (for the kegged batch). Aroma vs. Bitterness, but still not the best idea to change things. My focus on the FWH test wasn't what it should have been.
- some grains got into the boil from kegged batch.

*FWH/Kegged, way more aromatic and smooth lasting bitterness.
*Boil addition/Bottled , sharp spike of bitterness. (hop aromas lasted longer in this batch, but I attribute that to the fact there was more of the potent Galaxy)

Nothing to live by, but it's enough to keep me stubborn about it. :headhit:

Columbus was the bittering hop.
Good to know, thanks Rick! That link is really interesting.
Last edited by nicko on 23 Sep 2014, 19:00, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #45 made 9 years ago
by Rick
I'm still not completely finished, but I wanted to update the thread considering a lot of thought has gone into this for me.

I've been flipping around on this recipe like an insane person. Lots of reading on other forums (and via The Mad Fermentationist) shows me that too many think the BYO recipe for Founders Breakfast Stout is too thin bodied.

I looked into the stout section of BCS, but nothing really grabbed me. Until, I got to the "specialty beer" section. The black forest stout looked like a very workable template. I started with that as a foundation, and basically came up with this recipe.

It's a bit of a hodgepodge of that and the BYO recipe, along with some improvising. I also did a lot of reading on dark malts to "fine tune" the percentages. Generally 10% is about right for the dark malts, and this declines as the gravity increases.

Some articles for that:

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/1559" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... m-the-pros
https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/314-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... m-the-pros


I also substituted Crystal 120 in place of what was listed in the BCS Black Forest Stout recipe, because it was already purchased for the BYO recipe attempt I had planned. I then went to Avery's website, and used their Out of Bounds Stout as a reference. I basically copied the C120 and Carapils amounts for that, because that beer is pretty good. Adding the carapils would be my preempting the worry of a "thin" stout. Of course, I'll have to make other considerations like mash temp and yeast, but this is just the malt end of it.

Note: The following acid malt amount is based on my home water profile. This recipe reflects 100% tap water, no diluting was needed for this style. I still may fiddle with that, but this is what I have down so far.


[center]Breakfast Stout[/center]

Recipe Overview

Brewer:
Style:
Source Recipe Link:
ABV: 8.2% (assumes any priming sugar used is diluted.)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.083
IBU's (Tinseth): 50
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 0.6
Colour: 102.6 EBC = 52.1 SRM

Kettle Efficiency (as in EIB and EAW): 75.4 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 67.9 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full-Volume Mash): Sacharification

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 90 mins at 66.6 C = 151.9 F
Boil: 90 min
Ferment: 14 days at 17 C = 62.6 F

Volumes & Gravities
(Note that VAW below is the Volume at Flame-Out (VFO) less shrinkage.)
The, "Clear Brewing Terminology," thread at http://www.biabrewer.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Total Water Needed (TWN): 40.99 L = 10.83 G
Volume into Boil (VIB): 36.81 L = 9.72 G @ 1.06
Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW): 25.53 L = 6.74 G @ 1.083
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 23 L = 6.08 G @ 1.083
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 21.88 L = 5.78 G @ 1.021 assuming apparent attenuation of 75 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

Note: If extracts, sugars or adjuncts are not followed by an exclamation mark, go to http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (needs link)

72.9% Fawcett GoldenPromise (5.2 EBC = 2.6 SRM) 6934 grams = 15.29 pounds
4.6% Roasted Barley (1332.8 EBC = 676.5 SRM) 438 grams = 0.96 pounds
3.1% Fawcett Chocolate Malt (1119.3 EBC = 568.2 SRM) 295 grams = 0.65 pounds
3.9% Crystal120 (318.7 EBC = 161.8 SRM) 371 grams = 0.82 pounds
3.8% Carapils (2.5 EBC = 1.3 SRM) 361 grams = 0.8 pounds
7.7% Oats (1 EBC = 0.5 SRM) 732 grams = 1.61 pounds
4% Acidulated (3.3 EBC = 1.7 SRM) 380 grams = 0.84 pounds


The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

41.4 IBU Warrior Pellets (15.6%AA) 36 grams = 1.27 ounces at 60 mins
8.6 IBU Williamette Pellets (5.4%AA) 28 grams = 0.988 ounces at 30 mins

Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full-Volume Mash): Sacharification for 90 mins at 66.6 C = 151.9 F

Strike Water Needed (SWN): 41.8 L = 11.04 G at 68.8 C = 155.8 F

Mashout for 1 mins at 77 C = 170.6 F




Miscellaneous Ingredients

raw cacao nibs (secondary/sanitized with bourbon)
Trader Joe's Ethiopian whole coffee beans (secondary/sanitized with bourbon)
med toasted French oak cubes (secondary/sanitized with bourbon)

(contact time and amounts TBD)

Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Hopsock Used: Y

Chilling Method: No-Chill (Employed 0 mins after boil end.)

Fermentation & Conditioning

Fermentation: S-04 for 14 days at 17 C = 62.6 F

Secondary Used: Y (probably another 4-6 weeks on this attempt)
Crash-Chilled: N
Filtered: N
Req. Volumes of CO2: 2.25
Last edited by Rick on 30 Oct 2014, 02:06, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #46 made 9 years ago
by shdougan
I'm going to be brewing this recipe on the weekend. Anybody have any tips on scaling the original recipe down to 2.5 gal? I pretty much cut the grain bill by 50%, but am unsure of what actual volume of water I should use. I have a 9 gal kettle with a 35" diameter.
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