Having nothing to worry about last nght I got fussing around the drawers of my brew room and decided to focus on thermometers.Over the space of 25 years of extract brewing I ended up with 3 glass thermometers.( I have never broken one!)When I started gearing up for BIAB I also bought a digital eclectric probe type.
I decided to check these things against each other.Using recommended ice bath and boiling water test they all seemed fairly similar.I decided to try something in the mid range.I settled on 37c degrees as my target' as test media is always available and mostly consistent.
The sharp probe under my tongue proved bothersome but not aweful.My jaws were alittle sore by the time I got the large glass ones up to temp.I found my digital,reading at 39 deg,1 glass therm at 35c,1 at 33c,and 1 at 38c!
Yikes! Are there any truly reliable therms out there?
Post #2 made 14 years ago
You know what they say about having two watches?
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Post #4 made 14 years ago
Only if they're not workingLylo wrote:They are both right twice a day?
A man with one watch knows the time, a man with two is never sure
Last edited by stux on 14 May 2011, 01:37, edited 5 times in total.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Post #5 made 14 years ago
Great thread Lylo 
Calibrating a thermometer at zero and boiling point in no way means it will be accurate at mash and fermentation temps. You have to calibrate them at the temps you are using them for which is pretty much impossible for the home brewer.
Having several thermometers is the only way I have ever seen around this. And, if you ever get to go to someone else's place to brew, always take your thermometers as this gives you yet another chance to calibrate at mash temps.
I never thought of testing thermometers at body temps - great idea! I'll dig mine out tomorrow and let you know how mine fare though over the years I now seem to have culled my thermometers down to those that agree within 1 degree at mash and fermentation temps.
Hopefully a few other guys will repeat your experiment and post their results here.
PP
Calibrating a thermometer at zero and boiling point in no way means it will be accurate at mash and fermentation temps. You have to calibrate them at the temps you are using them for which is pretty much impossible for the home brewer.
Having several thermometers is the only way I have ever seen around this. And, if you ever get to go to someone else's place to brew, always take your thermometers as this gives you yet another chance to calibrate at mash temps.
I never thought of testing thermometers at body temps - great idea! I'll dig mine out tomorrow and let you know how mine fare though over the years I now seem to have culled my thermometers down to those that agree within 1 degree at mash and fermentation temps.
Hopefully a few other guys will repeat your experiment and post their results here.
PP
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Post #6 made 14 years ago
I have a question for you PP. I have read a few of your posts saying, 1st of all that the freeze/boil method of checking thermometers is inaccurate and 2nd that you have multiple thermometers.
My questions are how did you find out that the freeze/boil test was inaccurate and also if you use multiple thermometers, which one is right and how do you know it is right?
I'll be interested to learn a bit more as I'm sure others will too.
Cheers wiz
My questions are how did you find out that the freeze/boil test was inaccurate and also if you use multiple thermometers, which one is right and how do you know it is right?
I'll be interested to learn a bit more as I'm sure others will too.
Cheers wiz
[center]"All right, brain. You don't like me and I don't like you, but let's just do this and I can get back to killing you with beer."
[/center]
[center]Homer Simpson[/center]
[center]K.I.S.S., B.I.A.B.[/center]
[/center]
[center]Homer Simpson[/center]
[center]K.I.S.S., B.I.A.B.[/center]
Post #7 made 14 years ago
I have a hard time reading most conventional thermometers s,so I really want to find a digital that I can trust.
AWOL
Post #8 made 14 years ago
Unfortunately this same calibration thing happens with digitals too Lylo - I've had a few of those as well 
Wiz, the freeze and boil (at sea level) methods are accurate but only to check if your thermometer is reading correctly at 0 C or 100 C. For example, with a glass thermometer, there might be a tiny imperfection in the tube at certain points causing the 'mercury' to rise faster or slower at that point.
I first was suss about thermometers after testing a new digital one I bought a little after I first started mashing. Then I started comparing thermometers with guys that brewed near me and found that it was very hard to find any two thermometers agreeing at mash temps. It must have been around that time that I also tried them at 0 C and 100 C and found that accuracy there didn't necessarily reflect mash accuracy because I've been carrying on about this for as long as I can remember
.
I'll look through some drawers tomorrow* and see if I have kept any old thermometers that I no longer use and give them the 'Lylo' test. Will do it on my 'good' thermometers as well. Be interesting to see some others do the test as well.
I have found these cheap, stainless steel brewing thermometers to be very good at all temps... They are usually within a degree of each other. It is possible that the copper bands which hold the thermometer in place might become loose and allow the thermometer to slide though this has never happened to me.
As to knowing which one of multiple thermometers is right at mash temps the only way I know of is by testing them alongside as many others as you can, at mash temp, and finding the ones that read the same or very close.
Cheers
PP
* Just had a quick look and found I have 2 of the above thermometers, 2 digitals, a handheld laser and 4 other glass ones. I'll look for more tomorrow. LOL!
Wiz, the freeze and boil (at sea level) methods are accurate but only to check if your thermometer is reading correctly at 0 C or 100 C. For example, with a glass thermometer, there might be a tiny imperfection in the tube at certain points causing the 'mercury' to rise faster or slower at that point.
I first was suss about thermometers after testing a new digital one I bought a little after I first started mashing. Then I started comparing thermometers with guys that brewed near me and found that it was very hard to find any two thermometers agreeing at mash temps. It must have been around that time that I also tried them at 0 C and 100 C and found that accuracy there didn't necessarily reflect mash accuracy because I've been carrying on about this for as long as I can remember
.I'll look through some drawers tomorrow* and see if I have kept any old thermometers that I no longer use and give them the 'Lylo' test. Will do it on my 'good' thermometers as well. Be interesting to see some others do the test as well.
I have found these cheap, stainless steel brewing thermometers to be very good at all temps... They are usually within a degree of each other. It is possible that the copper bands which hold the thermometer in place might become loose and allow the thermometer to slide though this has never happened to me.
As to knowing which one of multiple thermometers is right at mash temps the only way I know of is by testing them alongside as many others as you can, at mash temp, and finding the ones that read the same or very close.
Cheers
PP
* Just had a quick look and found I have 2 of the above thermometers, 2 digitals, a handheld laser and 4 other glass ones. I'll look for more tomorrow. LOL!
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Post #9 made 14 years ago
Good thread..
On my last brew I had 3 thermometers on the go all at once (2 glass, 1 electronic) and they all read differently !
I think unless someone comes up with a method of providing a reliable calibrated and cheap heat source in the range of 60c to 70c to enable calibration at home we brewers will have to live it. I have thought about using Napthalene (mothballs) which melt at 78c as one way to check thermometers at a temp closer to mash temp's. Don't now about the fumes though
.
I'll now think of my thermometer as one of the variables, just like my water, that goes towards making my brews different to everyone elses.
Now its just a case of picking one,, eeny meeny miny mo
Y
On my last brew I had 3 thermometers on the go all at once (2 glass, 1 electronic) and they all read differently !
I think unless someone comes up with a method of providing a reliable calibrated and cheap heat source in the range of 60c to 70c to enable calibration at home we brewers will have to live it. I have thought about using Napthalene (mothballs) which melt at 78c as one way to check thermometers at a temp closer to mash temp's. Don't now about the fumes though
.I'll now think of my thermometer as one of the variables, just like my water, that goes towards making my brews different to everyone elses.
Now its just a case of picking one,, eeny meeny miny mo
Y
Last edited by Yeasty on 15 May 2011, 16:16, edited 5 times in total.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #10 made 14 years ago
I only use one electronic thermometer for this reason. (I wouldn't know if it reads high or low either I probably should check it out.)Yeasty wrote:Good thread..
On my last brew I had 3 thermometers on the go all at once (2 glass, 1 electronic) and they all read differently !
/snip/
I'll now think of my thermometer as one of the variables, just like my water, that goes towards making my brews different to everyone elses.
Now its just a case of picking one,, eeny meeny miny mo
Y
But, by using the same one over and over, it helps to remove that variable component and hopefully I can get more consistent results.
HC
Last edited by housecat on 15 May 2011, 18:27, edited 5 times in total.
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Lylo Thermometer Test
Post #11 made 14 years ago
[center]The Lylo Test on 11 Thermometers 
[/center]
Okay, have just tested, as best I can, 11 thermometers as close as I could get to the following seven different temperature points...
Freezing 0 C, Lager Ferment 9 C, Ale Ferment 18 C, Protein Rest 50 C, Mash Temp 66 C, Mash Out Temp 78 C, and Boiling Point 100 C.
Here are the thermometers...(The far right digital one is not in the test as it's batteries had died. The two 'glass thermometers' might appear as one in the pic as they are touching each other.)
Testing so many thermometers at once was quite hard. Holding 4 'short' thermometers in your hand and trying to read them with a magnifying glass, sometimes through condensation, whilst maintaining the water temperature is no mean feat. For the higher temps, I used much higher volumes of water (12 L) than the small ice slurry I began with and, even then it was a bit of a reading race. Anyway, here are my results...For newly registered members who can't download the spreadsheet, there was a 3 C variance at freezing, a 2 C variance at lager ferment, a 3 C difference at ale ferment, a 4 C variance at protein rest, a 5 C variance at mash temps, a 6 C variance at mash out temp and a 9 C difference at boiling point but...
...knowing the freezing/boiling variance of a single thermometer will not help you determine its variance at other temps.
A variance of 5 C at mash temp is pretty serious given that the accepted mashing range is from 62 C to 70 C and that the extremes of the range are meant top give you entirely different beers.
PP
Other points...
1. All the thermometers apart from the 'infra-red' were bought from brew shops. All except the 'infra-red' and the 'Fridge Temp Controllers' were sold as thermometers suitable for mashing.
2. The 'glass thermometers' were the slowest and hardest to read. The numbers on one of them actually became almost illegible after my first mash and I haven't used it again until now.
3. The infra-red is not designed to work on reflective surfaces such as water. It worked surprisingly well though up to 'Protein Rest' when I played it over the surface with all the other thermometers in it.
4. I didn't test the 'Fridge Temp Controllers' above the Protein Rest as I think I was stretching their tolerance limits and didn't want to risk damage.
[/center]Okay, have just tested, as best I can, 11 thermometers as close as I could get to the following seven different temperature points...
Freezing 0 C, Lager Ferment 9 C, Ale Ferment 18 C, Protein Rest 50 C, Mash Temp 66 C, Mash Out Temp 78 C, and Boiling Point 100 C.
Here are the thermometers...(The far right digital one is not in the test as it's batteries had died. The two 'glass thermometers' might appear as one in the pic as they are touching each other.)
Testing so many thermometers at once was quite hard. Holding 4 'short' thermometers in your hand and trying to read them with a magnifying glass, sometimes through condensation, whilst maintaining the water temperature is no mean feat. For the higher temps, I used much higher volumes of water (12 L) than the small ice slurry I began with and, even then it was a bit of a reading race. Anyway, here are my results...For newly registered members who can't download the spreadsheet, there was a 3 C variance at freezing, a 2 C variance at lager ferment, a 3 C difference at ale ferment, a 4 C variance at protein rest, a 5 C variance at mash temps, a 6 C variance at mash out temp and a 9 C difference at boiling point but...
...knowing the freezing/boiling variance of a single thermometer will not help you determine its variance at other temps.
A variance of 5 C at mash temp is pretty serious given that the accepted mashing range is from 62 C to 70 C and that the extremes of the range are meant top give you entirely different beers.
PP
Other points...
1. All the thermometers apart from the 'infra-red' were bought from brew shops. All except the 'infra-red' and the 'Fridge Temp Controllers' were sold as thermometers suitable for mashing.
2. The 'glass thermometers' were the slowest and hardest to read. The numbers on one of them actually became almost illegible after my first mash and I haven't used it again until now.
3. The infra-red is not designed to work on reflective surfaces such as water. It worked surprisingly well though up to 'Protein Rest' when I played it over the surface with all the other thermometers in it.
4. I didn't test the 'Fridge Temp Controllers' above the Protein Rest as I think I was stretching their tolerance limits and didn't want to risk damage.
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Post #12 made 14 years ago
I really like the infra-red one.Does wort qualify as a reflective surface?If that thing is any for brewing I'm getting one.I heard actually that they are fairly good even for body temperature.I figure(after playing with my assortment)that if it can be within 3
C I would be happy.It has lot's of other uses if you need to justify the prchase to anyone.(place winking emoticon here).So long, gotta go Google infra-red thermometers.
C I would be happy.It has lot's of other uses if you need to justify the prchase to anyone.(place winking emoticon here).So long, gotta go Google infra-red thermometers.
AWOL
Post #13 made 14 years ago
Just ordered this to compliment my collectionhttp://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... K:MEWNX:ITLylo wrote:I really like the infra-red one.Does wort qualify as a reflective surface?If that thing is any for brewing I'm getting one.I heard actually that they are fairly good even for body temperature.I figure(after playing with my assortment)that if it can be within 3
C I would be happy.It has lot's of other uses if you need to justify the prchase to anyone.(place winking emoticon here).So long, gotta go Google infra-red thermometers.
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Last edited by nala on 16 May 2011, 13:44, edited 5 times in total.
Post #14 made 14 years ago
LOL, thats what I thought I was buying yesterday for 10 bucks.Upon further investigation I think I bought 5, k type probes that you may be interested in.There was only minutes left in the auction with no bids so I jumped on it without reading the closer!I'll wait to see what shows up.
AWOL
Post #15 made 14 years ago
So sorry Lylo that I haven't replied sooner. I'm often short on time and occassionally miss posts I should have replied to. Send me a PM if I do this again.Lylo wrote:I really like the infra-red one. Does wort qualify as a reflective surface?If that thing is any for brewing I'm getting one.I heard actually that they are fairly good even for body temperature.I figure(after playing with my assortment)that if it can be within 3
C I would be happy.It has lot's of other uses if you need to justify the prchase to anyone.(place winking emoticon here).So long, gotta go Google infra-red thermometers.
I was actually quite surprised at how well the infra-red went but I wouldn't get one. I had to hold the trigger a few times and I could well have just been waiting until I saw the read-out I wanted to see. I didn't intend to but I sucpect with so much going on in the above tests, it may have been a possibility with this thermometer.
I would classify wort as a reflective surface, like glass or water so the thermometer is not designed for this. You could float a non-reflective thing on your wort but it would have to be large and food-grade. I must say I would prefer to buy several other thermometers than one of these ones.
If you are a real brewer, you will have more than one thermometer and it shouldn't be an infra-red one!
PP
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Post #16 made 14 years ago
I just got a used Digi-sense professional type therm off ebay and trust it.My Taylor 20 dollar unit works okay for a while then I think it gets water into the probe and everything reads 30C.I can calibrate the Digi-sense for highs and lows using ice water ,boiling point, or any known temp.Also I found out that body temp is not real reliable.Can be up to 2Deg. defference between body parts,even areas of the mouth!
AWOL
Post #17 made 14 years ago
If you like thermometers take a look www.thermoworks.com
They have one called thermapen that reads in about 3 seconds and is very accurate. The only downside is that they cost about 96.00 dollars US. I have had two, the first was not water resistant but the new model they have now is.
They have one called thermapen that reads in about 3 seconds and is very accurate. The only downside is that they cost about 96.00 dollars US. I have had two, the first was not water resistant but the new model they have now is.
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Post #18 made 14 years ago
I think we need a few more tests of the digital thermometers. The two "Digital Probe Thermometers" I have are my best as the spreadsheet shows. However, the only other two digital thermometers in the spreadsheet, though only tested up to 50 C, did show irregularities so more digital tests are definitely needed.
One thing from that spreadsheet, if you did test your thermometer in ice / boiling, and they read okay, you could be fairly confident that your thermometer is within a couple of degrees at mash. If not, then you could have a problemo
,
PP
One thing from that spreadsheet, if you did test your thermometer in ice / boiling, and they read okay, you could be fairly confident that your thermometer is within a couple of degrees at mash. If not, then you could have a problemo
,PP
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Post #19 made 12 years ago
I have three thermometers and all are different........But what gets me is they say you should never ever ever never ever never mash above 170f,,what if your thermometer is off and you are mashing at 174f?
Post #20 made 12 years ago
Good Day, at 174F, you will have very few enzymes left to mash with......
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Post #21 made 12 years ago
PF,
I mash out at around 168-170*F, but Ive don't think ive heard heard of a mash approaching 170*F. Typical mashes are around 148-156 I think. I hope that your thermometer is not that far off!
I mash out at around 168-170*F, but Ive don't think ive heard heard of a mash approaching 170*F. Typical mashes are around 148-156 I think. I hope that your thermometer is not that far off!
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