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Chilling Ideas

Post #1 made 11 years ago
by GuingesRock
PistolPatch wrote:Dustinj,

I have two large kettles (70L versus your 50L) and I chill and no-chill. Both methods have advantages and disadvantages. If you have an immersion chiller and are single batching, I would advise using it especially when starting out.

The immersion chiller you have built is a great investment. I would advise you to ignore no-chilling for now unless you get in a situation where you don't have a fermentor available to pitch immediately.

An immersion chiller offers many advantages not available to even commercial breweries. It's also a very safe route that only costs water. (Check on the points the guys have made above re leaks and cleanliness though.)

Using your immersion chiller at flame-out is what I have always done with my beers until I started doing the double-batches I now do. (I now drain the first half of my kettle into a cube for no-chilling and then, when that's finsihed turn on my chiller.) This method still gives me very respectable results in comps on both the no-chilled and chilled batches but I feel that the beers I used to brew by turning on the chiller at flame out had more of a snappiness/crispness to them. It's only a little thing though and, on reflection, I think I mainly pick it up on less hoppy beers such as lagers/pilsners.

What I'm trying to say is that there are hundreds of different ways to put hops into a beer and manage them. An immersion chiller turned on at flame out is a very good/primitive/solid point to start exploring hop management from so don't be scared to do it.

And, don't be scared of no-chill either!!!

Hop management - the greatest mystery in brewing :smoke:,
PP
PP's article got my 5.30 am, waking up, foggy, half stupid brain thinking :think: (Notice use of word article rather then post :) ) ...missed your posts PP. Hope you had a good holiday.

Have I invented a no need to clean, no need to sanitise, chiller that can be used for cubes as well as pots? Or does such a thing exist already?

Outflow should be larger bore than inflow as less water pressure. The surface area exposed to the cold water would be the surface area of the pot, which might be similar to (or even better than) the surface area of a wort chiller coil (calculations needed). If the pot was aluminium, the conductivity would be similar to the copper of a chiller coil. A plastic cube or a SS pot would be less conductive.
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Last edited by GuingesRock on 06 Feb 2013, 18:28, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges

Post #2 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Just clicked on "Active Topics" GR and saw that I had done 6 of the last 8 posts here and I've been writing over the last six hours. I hate that!!!!! Hopefully readers will put it down to the fact I have not posted actively for two weeks and not to the fact that I obviuously have no other life and have been drinking with AcesHigh :lol:.

So, last post for today... (Mind you, I still expect a lot of replies to the other five posts I have written today :lol:).

My last post talked about solving problems quickly and how a good thread can often be a short one as it means that the problem or question has been answered.

Now that I am drunk, I am questioning the wisdom of that advice. Here's why...

I've envisioned what you have envisioned about five years ago so I love your thread/post :thumbs:. Yeasty said something in another post I saw about throwing vinegar on your chips. He and I hate doing that as it stifles creativity. But, it is also important to make sure that we all don't go wasting money and time on an idea.

My personal view is that their is some merit to the idea but not much. Here's a few things...

1. How do you do a mash and boil with that second vessel in the way?
2. You would be surprised at how little effect an outside jacket will have...

... an immersion chiller placed in a kettle can be incredibly slow to shill the wort unless you agitate the chiller or the wort.

So, I don't think the jacket idea is practical or would even work unless you solve the above two problems.

The furthest I have got on this thinking is having an immersion chiller that also somehow powers a propeller/impeller to agitate the wort around the IC. How perfect would that be?

Another unfulfilled idea brought to you by PP that hopefully someone will make a reality and then send me lots of money :),
PP
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Post #3 made 11 years ago
by GuingesRock
Darn it guys. Stop pissing on my chips (yeasty put me off fish & chip shops for life yesterday).

Aces high. Take his laptop away now. I already crashed his main computer ;) forgot about the laptop.

PP. I was thinking that the pot/cube would be placed inside the second chilling vessel after the mash and boil.
You have a point. I don't like outside jackets either ;) Wort could be stirred when you are "shilling" it though :)
Last edited by GuingesRock on 06 Feb 2013, 20:57, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges

Post #4 made 11 years ago
by mally
i don't like pi$$ing on anybodies chips either, but i have an electric urn :sad:

edit;
I have missed your posts too PP
(Mind you, I still expect a lot of replies to the other five posts I have written today :lol:).
Good luck with that! I think we have more lurkers than posters :lol:
Last edited by mally on 06 Feb 2013, 21:08, edited 2 times in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #5 made 11 years ago
by joshua
GR and PP, the Above method works as well as placing the Kettle in an Ice Filled wash-tub.

It still can be considerd a waste of water, if it not in a closed system.

TO GO "off-Topic".
In the food industry, a similar system was used to Control "cooking" temperatures with "HOT" 400F oil, just like the Picture shows the water circulates. It was used before "Steam Jackets" were created.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #6 made 11 years ago
by Aces high
GuingesRock wrote:Aces high. Take his laptop away now. I already crashed his main computer forgot about the laptop.
I left him 4 hours ago, hes been drinkin on his own since then, so Im not responsible any more.

Now unfortunately i am going to have to point out one of the flaws in your plan. Its great to have the water on the outside of the pot moving but unless the wort on the inside is moving the edges will cool but the centre will stay nice and hot due to the thermal mass.

If you look at a plate chiller or a distillation condensor the fluid on both sides always needs to be moving to keep moving the heat from one side to the other as the two sides try to equalize.

Your design would work eventually, but not overly efficiently
Last edited by Aces high on 06 Feb 2013, 21:16, edited 2 times in total.

Post #7 made 11 years ago
by GuingesRock
Joshua, I think it might work better than an ice bath, as the water is circulating around the pot with warm water rising and spilling through the higher outlet and cold water entering at the bottom.

Aces high. Yes. The wort would probably need to be stirred with a spoon during chilling for suitable efficiency.

Mally. Don't try it :argh:
Guinges

Post #8 made 11 years ago
by joshua
AH, The cold water outside of the Ketlle will cool the Inside of the Kettle, and cause the Wort on the walls to drop, and that will cause a convection to occur in the Kettle, and start a circulation.

Tha same thing occurs in a fermention Vessel, since the yeast build up temperature in the middle, and the FV has cooler walls....
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #9 made 11 years ago
by GuingesRock
joshua wrote:AH, The cold water outside of the Ketlle will cool the Inside of the Kettle, and cause the Wort on the walls to drop, and that will cause a convection to occur in the Kettle, and start a circulation.

Tha same thing occurs in a fermention Vessel, since the yeast build up temperature in the middle, and the FV has cooler walls....
Nice!

The convection currents in the inner wort vessel may, or may not, be strong enough to do the job. A little test of stirring vs. no stirring might be required.


ps. I'm not sure this would necessarily use more water than a coil chiller. The factor there, would be the efficiency of the heat exchange....If this turns out to be less efficient than a coil, then more water would be used.

The rate of water flow through the system would be determined by the input flow rate. The length of the coil in a standard chiller, together with the diameter of the tubing, slows down flow rate. A similar diameter and length of uncoiled plastic tube could be used to feed the water to the input.
Last edited by GuingesRock on 06 Feb 2013, 21:37, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges

Post #11 made 11 years ago
by GuingesRock
Hi Lylo,

I wasn't proposing that it was better, but it may have advantages in certain situations (eg. PP mentioned in #1 that he sometimes preferred to use a chiller than no-chill in a cube. This would enable chilling of a cube if desired).

It might be a large vessel, but could be cheaper than a wort chiller if a plastic bucket/tub were used.

ps. Chips are only a little soggy so far. Might dry out. Might get more soggy. Not eating them any way :argh:
Guinges

Post #12 made 11 years ago
by joshua
Good Day, I use my "old" HLT and My "old" Pump to control my fermeter tub Temperature.

I can fill the HLT with frozen water bottles or Those "Blue Things" with some water and circulate the cold water thru my "old" IC that surrounds the Fermenter in a large Tub of water.

I will try to cool the Kettle the same way, after I open the IC a Bit more Or NOW make a "Jacket" from the tub I use. (see the 1st Post picture)

If your a "Seppo" or a close Neighbor, You may remember A "BTU" is 1 pound of water changed 1 degree F.
A gallon has 8.6 BTU Per degree, so The Thermal mass of the Water surroung the Kettle should be MUCH greater than the Kettle for Good "efficiency of the heat exchange"

JMHO


I like Slo-Chill, and Late Wort Hopping.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #13 made 11 years ago
by GuingesRock
Thanks Joshua, I was hoping some version of it might have some use for somebody.

Does anyone else have any chilling ideas? There’s a lot on here about the no-chilling discovery. It’s time poor old chilling got some attention.
Guinges
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