Or you could try french-pressing your aroma hops into your fermenter when the krausen dies down

Kingy,

I have been playing around with different methods of dry hopping. First off dry hopping is for aroma! That means you don't want to heat the hops for any length of time. Heat releases the bittering qualities of a hops and drives off the aromatics. This is the complete opposite of what you want to do. Adding pelleted hops at flame out and dumping them with the trub into a cub will draw out the bittering qualities because of heat retention. The aromatics may stay in the cube?
Personally I now wait until active fermentation is completed (week or 2)and then add any late (flame out) or (dry-hop) hops to the primary fermenter. I give it a week and bottle. I don't make any hop additions to the primary if I am going to reuse the yeast cake for another brew. In that case I would use a secondary to dry hop.

I have had hop bombs were I use a bittering hops only and then add the 15, 10, 5, 0 hop additions as dry hops! The jury is still out on that? I never remember to compare it to graduated additions? Next time for sure?

I have also moved to adding flameout hops into the fermenter after the krausen has died down. I give it a couple of days then start to cold chill. I dont secondary ferment, but i have still reusaed the yeast out of the primary without and problems. Just a matter of rinsing the yeast away from the majority of the trub.

My hop additions now are usually 60 minutes, 5 minutes, dry hop, and I usually dry hop at about 1 to 1.5gms/ Litre for a standard Ale.

Which reminds me, i have to go home tonight and do exactly that. (30g of B-Saaz, 30g of Tettnang into an ale)

Well I'll tell you the thing I do.
I no-chill in my plastic fermentor using the airlock to relieve the pressure.
I've done it for the last 10brews or something.

The way I do it is at the finish of the boil I throw in the flame out additions in a hop bag
and transfer everything(trub and all) in the plastic bucket. I wait for 5-10 min and I throw
in 1-2 lt of frozen sterilized(boiled) water. That way the temp drops to like 70-C very fast.
Because of the decrease in temperature the hop character is not changed and I get massive amounts
of hop aroma in the final beers.
*It helps if you lower the giant ice cube with a spatula or something similar

Then I leave the bucket outside overnight and at the morning when I get to the pitching temp I pitch the yeast.

Not any sign of infection or anything similar in any of those batched,
but I guess you wouldn't leave the wort for 1 month before pitching.

I am trying to brew a SNPA today and am trying (for the first time)to follow the hop schedule of the original recipe.
All is going well except that looking forward I am not sure how to manage the zero minute addition when I am no-chilling.
I have in the past not worried about it and just threw this addition into the cube until cooled,however I am trying to stay true to the recipe for once and could use a little guidance.
I expect BB is comfrtably ensconsed into his football chair for the day,but I am sure there is lot's of other qualified help available.

Hey Lylo, I have pondered this very issue myself and come to the conclusion that a good way to deal with it would be to steep the zero minute hops (using a hops bag) for @ 15 minutes and then pull the bag and drain kettle into cube.

I bought one of these so that I would be able to remove the hops before draining into the cube hence saving myself the problem of dealing with any additional bittering that may result from having hops soaking in near-boiling wort for many hours as the cube cools. This new toy should eliminate the whole "compensation" necessary for NC.

What do you think?

---Todd

Thanks Todd,that is about what I had planned.
Ir is 0C here right now so I think I will put my 0 min hops into a voile bag,drop it into the kettle at flame out,put and put the lid on.I think I will pull it in about 15 or 20 min. and then just leave the kettle outside until this evening when it should be down to pitch temp.
That is a cool gadget though!

Lylo,

I just completed an experiment on late hop addition and dry hop additions. I brewed two Identical beers right down to pH and identical temps. One beer was FWH bittered and then the late hops were added at 15,10,5 and flame out. I used a hop bag to keep the hops out of the No-chill. I left the bag in 5 minutes for the 0 minute hops.

The other beer was FWH the same as the first and then I added "no other hops". I no-chilled and fermented. After two weeks I added all the late hop additions as dry hops to the second brew and waited 10 days. I kegged both beers and bottled some from the kegs.

I presented the beers to my home brew club and Basic Brewing Radio. I don't know what BBR thought about the beers until Tuesday when we record the show. I will tell you this much, My club voted 100% for the dry hopped beers. The late addition beer was great! Super, but the aroma was weak for a Black IPA. Tomorrow I will open the last two bottled beers to compare to the kegged beers which the club tested. I want to see if the kegged beers are different than the bottles?

The beers were brewed August 3&4th 2012. They matured differently and are like two different beers! The only difference is late or dry hopping.

Edit (Nov. 5th 2012)......

I just opened the last two bottled Black IPA's. I sampled them and then sampled them against the kegged version of the same beer! The verdict.. I am frikken stoned! Don't test four 9.5% beers on a empty stomach! Oh my, wheeeeee. Anyway! The bottled beers are not as good as the kegged beer. Now, they are the same beer, all I did was bottle from the ( UN-carbonated beer ) tapper and add 4 cartabs. The flavors (which are great) are subdued with the bottled version! The BBR folks will be disappointed! Oh Boy. I think I am going to....Ugh!

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?p ... radio-2012

November 29, 2012 - Late vs Dry Hopping
Bob Stempski shares his experiment comparing hops added near the end of the boil with hops added in the keg.

iTunes | Streaming mp3 <---- http://traffic.libsyn.com/basicbrewing/ ... hopexp.mp3

Thanks Bob. Can't wait to hear.

Bob, "Donya",

Just for information, I make a double batch mash. Then split that into 2 side-by-side mashout brews. That way I have two indentical beers except for......

Donya joshua

Lylo wrote:I am trying to brew a SNPA today and am trying (for the first time)to follow the hop schedule of the original recipe.
All is going well except that looking forward I am not sure how to manage the zero minute addition when I am no-chilling.
I have in the past not worried about it and just threw this addition into the cube until cooled,however I am trying to stay true to the recipe for once and could use a little guidance.

Check this thread out Lylo as it addresses the issue of how to stay true to the original recipe.

The short answer is that unless you know how the original brewer managed their chill, you cannot stay true to the original recipe - you will be guessing. If you do know how the original recipe's chill was managed, then that thread has some suggestions of how to 'copy' the original chill method.

Lots of links in that thread too in that thread.

Spot ya ,
PP

I have to assume that most guys posting recipes are using CF or IC as there aren't really that many of us doing no chill. But thanks I will give this thread a look.

Yep, the question is though, are those guys who counter-flow or immersion chill doing so immediately at the boil end or are they whirlpooling and waiting 30-40 minutes before they commence chilling. If they are waiting, as many of them do, then you'll find not much difference between them and a no-chill brew.

Micro-breweries tend to whirlpool and settle so the 'odd' brewers out are actually those who start chilling at flame out rather than no-chillers.

So I guess I'll just keep messin around til I find what I like best.

Please see the edit to post # 10 above. UUrp!

porchfiddler,

I haven't tried your technique or anything like it. The question would be what would you accomplish that you couldn't by either adding late hops in a hop sack and pulling it before draining into the no chill container or just dry hopping? I have tried both in a experiment and both have their advantages? I am very lazy and sloppy so I try to simplify everything.

Try a side by side experiment with your idea and get back to us with your data. I would love to hear if there is a benefit to it? We are really into trying new techniques here and overthrowing myths and dogma. You never know when you will hit on a good idea! Give it a go and have some friends taste test your results. Having friends test for you helps take your own bias out of the equation. My brew club has helped me do that last month and I feel better about the results because I know I would never trust myself in judging.

I am sure Others will have some good input on this but here is my only thought.
I believe that extraction relies a great deal on wort volume.
PP?

Good Day PorchFiddler, Aroma hops have a lot of Myrcene.

Myrcene yields flavors that were not traditionally considered desirable by European brewers, and noble hops are very low in myrcene. However, many American hop varieties are very high in myrcene; it makes up up to 60% of total oil in Cascade and up to 70% in Amarillo.

Also found in some citrus fruits, myrcene lends American hops many of their distinctive flavors.

Melts above 80F/26C, Boils off at 120F/50C

http://beerlegends.com/myrcene-oil

When added late in, or after, the boil, myrcene adds the intense, pungent aroma associated with American dry-hopped beers. When boiled for longer periods, it yields the characteristic citrus and pine aromas of American craft beer.

You may want to try hopping some Aroma Hops at 120F/50C and let them sit for until your ready to Ferment.

This method added much Aroma, and not very much Flavor, like Dry-Hoping.

I have done the 1 liter boil with a french press of hops and added a lot of Hop flavor, and alot of grassy flavor also. Maybe it came from the pellets with the boiled wort

[Just looking at Lylo's current signature re elephants . Here's an elephant/mouse post for you Lylo ]

Lylo wrote:...I believe that extraction relies a great deal on wort volume.
PP?

A timely question Lylo

The existing hop formulas we use (Rager, Garetz and Tinseth) take volume, time and gravity of the wort into consideration. Latest info seems to say that gravity of the wort is less important than we thought it was. Volume of the wort is usually not much of a consideration. The theory is that you get better utilisation in very large kettles though I have no idea why as you still have the same amount of hop oils per litre/gallon going into the brew. In porchfiddler's case however...

porchfiddler

What Lylo says above, boiling a large proportion of hops in a very small amount of wort could well be a problem. You probably won't get as much bang for your buck as if you boiled them in the full volume of wort. And, there's no real need to I think.

Time is the real issue we are talking about. A few of the members here are exploring this area as there are no easy answers here as yet. One answer I am getting totally confident in is that the time at which you employ your chilling method is just as important, perhaps more so than the chilling method you use.

We have a few different threads scattered here atm on this subject though they won't be easy to find. What they are basically saying though is that there are many different types of chilling methods and times. Here are some...

1. Active Chilling at Flame-Out - Where a counter-flow, plate or immersion chiller is turned on immediately at the end of the boil.

2. Active Chilling 10-40 minutes after flame-out - Where a counter-flow, plate or immersion chiller is turned on 10-40 minutes after the end of the boil.

3. Natural Chilling (No-Chill) - No active chilling is employed. Have a look at Lylo's signature atm re elephants .

Pro Brewers Chilling versus Home Brewers Chilling

At the moment when it comes to chilling, we have a real problem of assumption. For example, if you were an immersion chiller brewer who turned their chiller on at flame out (method 1 above) you would naturally assume that all brewers with chillers turn their chiller on at flame out. I assumed that for many years. In fact, I never even thought about the issue.

However, method 1 above is a practice that I suspect is only used by home brewers and certainly not all of them. I currently have two conflicting answers on when pro-brewers (commercial and micro) actually start chilling. The first answer (one I have given in other threads recently on this subject which I'll probably have to edit) was 20-40 minutes after flame-out. Last week I had a more reliable answer from a pro brewer who is an accomplished micro-brewer and is temporarily working in a very large commercial brewery. His answer was 10 minutes for the micro and 15 minutes for the commercial.

When you consider that many home brewers who actively chill often whirlpool and then let the brew settle before chilling, especially in the case of a plate chiller or counter-flow chiller, then you start to see that Method 1 is probably the odd method.

For example, the pro brewer above who gave me the 20-40 minute estimate above, hasn't pro brewed in a while but he doesn't drain his brews through his plate chiller until 40 minutes after flame out. He is a consistent gold medal winner on lagers. The other brewer, (the 10-15 minute one I mentioned above) brews some of the best beers I know and also has been a consistent medal winner.

The only thing the above brewers have in common is that they don't chill at flame out. The second brewer however would, if he could.

So, the first thing we have to realise is that Method 1 is quite different from Methods 2 and 3.

Method 2 versus Method 3

When you accept that Method 1 is a different kettle of fish from 2 and 3, then we can start to get to the real question that is being asked in this thread. The real question is,

"If I naturally chill (no-chill), should I treat my hop additions any differently than if I was actively chilling at say 20 minutes post-boil?"

My current answer would be no. I think it is a good answer but it is still a very primitive one because we still aren't asking the right questions of each other.

Asking the right questions.

If you find a beer whose flavour and aroma characteristics you really like, you really need to start asking a lot of questions of the original brewer. Mathematics and IBU formulas will not get you anywhere near close to replicating those characteristics.

You need to ask the brewer...

"Did you FWH?
"Did you Dry Hop/"
"What sort of chiller, if any, did you use?"
"When did you turn that chiller on?
"How old were your hops?"
"How did you store them?"
etc

Finding a Common Language

At the moment, there is no common language amongst brewers and, existing brewing software is very much out of control. Hazy definitions, poor terminology, incorrect formulas, lack of education etc has everyone speaking at cross-purposes. Post a recipe report from your software to me and I can guarantee I'll be able to show you at least several areas in which it will make no sense to another brewer or even lead them to brew your recipe incorrectly.

Several members here have been working hard on fixing the above problems. But, in the meantime, there is no reason why we can't all give a bit more detail on how we brew and contribute to knowledge threads like this one.

Brewing a nice beer is actually very simple. (You mightn't believe it from my posts here but I do keep my brewing very simple. Each year I enter one comp and always do fine.)

I know everyone wants simple fast answers on questions. We do have a lot already but there are lots more to explore before we do have real answers. When it comes to hop flavour and aroma experiments I think that side by side tests are the only real answer and unfortunately not many home brewers have the resources to do that.

Until we get more info, the best thing to do is brew and then ask yourself some questions. For example, when it comes to flavour and aroma, ask yourself...

"Do I like the flavour and aroma?"

If no and you are an active chiller but didnn't chill at flame-out, brew it again but brew at flame-out. Did that improve things?

If you are a natural chiller (no-chiller), try doing the same brew but First Wort Hopping it. Did that work?

You'll have seen some of the BIABrewer.info members posting their answers to the above in various places already. Whilst their posts may be scattered atm, they get us all thinking in the right areas so post your thoughts/results as well.

The only question I have for now is, "Did anyone actually read all the above?"
PP

Ok PP, I read all the above, But, If Anyone trys a new Hopping process, and can repeat it, a few times, does this mean the process is useless, because the History of hopping does not show this process???

Just like Mash/Brew-in-a-Bag is not worth trying since 3 vessel brewing is the standard???

No-Chill is worthless because CF andd IC chilling is standard????

Developing new Recipes is worthless, since So many are posted??

I think it is better to think "out of the Box" and fail, or find a new path.

Damn! I am the most hopeless writer ever! I definitely should give up writing!!!

Josh, I have no idea what I wrote that prompted your questions above because I totally agree with everything you have written. Where did I go wrong?

My second last para was actually about you and a few other brewers that take quite some time and trouble to post their results. (My real worry is to make sure what you post doesn't actually get lost.)


PP