Ok,so, haven't done huge amounts of BIABing (4th brew in FV now), but have done plenty of kits in the past. I've just had a bottle from batch 2, and the carbonation is disappointing. I do, in comparison to others, like my beer a little fizzy anyway, but still, disappointing is the word. I didn't take notes on this brew, so can't recall precisely what I did, but I'm guessing it was probably a level teaspoon or so of sugar in each bottle. On that basis it's around 120g in total for a 15 litres batch (level teaspoon being around 4g).
Now, I'm looking to get something more reliable going and I tried a priming calculator, and for the same 15 litre batch, it recommends 80g of priming sugar which, given the disappointing results above, seems to be very much on the low side. I am planning to mix the priming sugar into the beer before bottling now, for consistency, and to keep some better notes in future.
But anyway, is there any kind of vague consensus regarding priming sugar at all? Given that 120g or thereabouts is disappointing, it seems odd to have a recommendation from a calculator as low as 2.6g per bottle. Using the same calculator to calculate priming for European lagers (which, being a European I'm fairly familiar with), comes out with a figure of 3.66g or just under half a teaspoon, which given the above, just seems wrong.
I seem to recall some success with about 3/4 of a teaspoon some years ago, which would be around 6g per bottle I guess, but it's been a while. Any thoughts?
Post #2 made 8 years ago
Be sure to study this post and this one.
[Please note that Hints does not reply to direct questions.]
[Please note that Hints does not reply to direct questions.]
Last edited by Hints on 09 Apr 2016, 23:05, edited 1 time in total.
Post #4 made 8 years ago
Esquid, the post above show you need 100gram to 200gram to prime 19L.
That come to as much as 10.5gr per Liter, and as low as 5.25gr per Liter.
I found it is bad to add sugar per Bottle, since you'll be measuring very small amounts.
Heavy beers are difficult to Naturally carbonate due to the Gravity, so More Sugar is needed.
Lite Beers need less sugar, Because the gravity is Lower.
Cold beers like lager, need a bit more due to temperature.
If Ales are going to be Stored Cold, a bit more Sugar and More time to Carbonate is needed.
Ales, generally need less, due to being Stored Warm, and High temperatures can make Bottle Bombs.
While Naturally Carbonated beer tastes better, I think CO2 carbonation is easier, Just a Whole Lot More expensive.
Good Luck and Look out for "Gushers", and "Bottle Bombs"!
That come to as much as 10.5gr per Liter, and as low as 5.25gr per Liter.
I found it is bad to add sugar per Bottle, since you'll be measuring very small amounts.
Lite Beers need less sugar, Because the gravity is Lower.
Cold beers like lager, need a bit more due to temperature.
If Ales are going to be Stored Cold, a bit more Sugar and More time to Carbonate is needed.
Ales, generally need less, due to being Stored Warm, and High temperatures can make Bottle Bombs.
Good Luck and Look out for "Gushers", and "Bottle Bombs"!
Last edited by joshua on 10 Apr 2016, 03:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #5 made 8 years ago
You also need to consider the health of your yeast. If your yeast is bad then no amount of sugar will help. If you are trying to carb a high abv beer and didn't have enough yeast they may be too stressed to continue.
I don't think adding more sugar for cooler temp will do much for you. The yeast work slower in cool temps and will eventually get thru all the sugars adding more will only get you more carbonation. IMHO
Actually looking at the Brewer's friend priming calculator they suggest less sugar for cooler temperature.
I disagree with Josh; gravity actually has no effect on priming sugar needed other than the health of the yeast.
I don't think adding more sugar for cooler temp will do much for you. The yeast work slower in cool temps and will eventually get thru all the sugars adding more will only get you more carbonation. IMHO
Actually looking at the Brewer's friend priming calculator they suggest less sugar for cooler temperature.
I disagree with Josh; gravity actually has no effect on priming sugar needed other than the health of the yeast.
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Post #6 made 8 years ago
Remember you have the carbonation calculator in the BIABacsu at the bottom of Section Q. To get it working, you need to have one of the fields in Section Q filled in plus, you need a temperature on the first line of Section H.
As the links that Hints put above show, there is a tremendous variance between priming recommendations. If you are bottling, I would recommend carbonation drops to begin with. When you are bottling, try a few bottles with different amounts of sugar and see how they go. (Use PET bottles so you don't kill yourself). Trying one amount of sugar on a whole batch is going to take you a long time to learn much. The carbonation drops will get you in the ball park.
The formulas used for priming are "theoretical" so we definitely have a lot more to learn in this area. Even some popular, experienced breweries seem to run into this carbonation problem at times and for long periods.
Yep, I think Josh has done a typo there; lagers require less sugar than ales to result in the same carbonation assuming you are bottling them at their fermentation temperatures.
I wouldn't mind hearing more from Josh on the high gravity theory. As I said above, it's a very strange area this whole carbonation thing. Might be clutching at straws though
.
I think the best thing is if we started a priming thread based on reality rather than theory. I'll have a think on that and post something up tomorrow.
PP
As the links that Hints put above show, there is a tremendous variance between priming recommendations. If you are bottling, I would recommend carbonation drops to begin with. When you are bottling, try a few bottles with different amounts of sugar and see how they go. (Use PET bottles so you don't kill yourself). Trying one amount of sugar on a whole batch is going to take you a long time to learn much. The carbonation drops will get you in the ball park.
The formulas used for priming are "theoretical" so we definitely have a lot more to learn in this area. Even some popular, experienced breweries seem to run into this carbonation problem at times and for long periods.
Yep, I think Josh has done a typo there; lagers require less sugar than ales to result in the same carbonation assuming you are bottling them at their fermentation temperatures.
I wouldn't mind hearing more from Josh on the high gravity theory. As I said above, it's a very strange area this whole carbonation thing. Might be clutching at straws though
.I think the best thing is if we started a priming thread based on reality rather than theory. I'll have a think on that and post something up tomorrow.
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Apr 2016, 16:13, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #7 made 8 years ago
PP, I have troubles Naturally carbonating High Gravity 1.022FG or 8.0+ABV, due to the amount of alcohol.
A few times I needed to add a quarter pack of Champagne Yeast, and needed to add 3% to 5% more sugar to get the Yeast Going.
"Sparking Barley Wine"
As Lump50h said "You also need to consider the health of your yeast",
When I use Lager Yeast, and Keep the beer around 15C, I need 3% to 5% MORE sugar to carbonate, since Cold Beer can Hold much more CO2, than Ales.
But you can Make some Fantastic "Gushers".
To help, I brew 9-10 L batches.
For Ales I use 47 Grams of cane Sugar
For Lagers I use 50 grams
.
The yeasts are a variety of 11.5 gram Dry Yeasts.
It Much easier and repeatable to Force carbonation with CO2 and a pressure chart to get 2.5 Volumes of Co2.
IMHO, YMMV
A few times I needed to add a quarter pack of Champagne Yeast, and needed to add 3% to 5% more sugar to get the Yeast Going.
"Sparking Barley Wine"
As Lump50h said "You also need to consider the health of your yeast",
When I use Lager Yeast, and Keep the beer around 15C, I need 3% to 5% MORE sugar to carbonate, since Cold Beer can Hold much more CO2, than Ales.
But you can Make some Fantastic "Gushers".
To help, I brew 9-10 L batches.
For Ales I use 47 Grams of cane Sugar
For Lagers I use 50 grams
.
The yeasts are a variety of 11.5 gram Dry Yeasts.
It Much easier and repeatable to Force carbonation with CO2 and a pressure chart to get 2.5 Volumes of Co2.
IMHO, YMMV
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Post #8 made 8 years ago
I look forward to the new thread. I just searched for a couple of hours to find a corelation between high gravity and priming.
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Post #9 made 8 years ago
Lumpy5oh, the links I have are...
http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/t ... rew.41927/
and
https://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/co ... advice_on/
These are older bookmarks, but are still available.
http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/t ... rew.41927/
and
https://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/co ... advice_on/
These are older bookmarks, but are still available.
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Post #10 made 8 years ago
Josh, that's interesting on the high ABV% beers. I wouldn't have thought of that . I'm assuming though that the solution is to use a different yeast rather than adding more sugar???
You've lost me on the 3-5% more sugar bit though. Not sure what you mean by that as you are doing less than half size 'normal' batches. I really can't see that there would be any difference between 47 grams and 50 grams
.
When you say, "When I use Lager Yeast, and Keep the beer around 15C, I need 3% to 5% MORE sugar to carbonate, since Cold Beer can Hold much more CO2, than Ales," that sentence will be very ambiguous for a lot of readers. Here's why...
a) If you fermented a lager at 10C and then (for some reason) allowed your lager to rise to 15C and sit at that temp for quite a few days before bottling, then you would need more priming sugar than if you had bottled it at it's correct fermenting temperature of 10C.
b) If you fermented an ale at 20C and then (for some reason) allowed your ale to lower to 15C whilst it was still fermenting to some degree, then you would need less priming sugar than if you had bottled it at it's correct fermenting temperature of 20C.
c) If you wanted 2.5 Volumes of CO2 in both the above beers and bottled them at their correct fermentation temperature, you will need less sugar in the lager as it is holding, in solution, more CO2 than the ale.
d) If you wanted 2.5 Volumes of CO2 in both the lager and ale and bottled them when they were both at 15 C, you will need the same amount of sugar in each.
Jeez Josh, that's 6 really long sentences to straighten out your one!
.
But, I'll give you some points back on the gravity thing.
As a matter of interest, Little Creatures uses lager yeast for priming their bottles of Little Creature's Pale Ale. I haven't had a super clear answer on why though.
PP
. I'm assuming though that the solution is to use a different yeast rather than adding more sugar???You've lost me on the 3-5% more sugar bit though. Not sure what you mean by that as you are doing less than half size 'normal' batches. I really can't see that there would be any difference between 47 grams and 50 grams
.When you say, "When I use Lager Yeast, and Keep the beer around 15C, I need 3% to 5% MORE sugar to carbonate, since Cold Beer can Hold much more CO2, than Ales," that sentence will be very ambiguous for a lot of readers. Here's why...
a) If you fermented a lager at 10C and then (for some reason) allowed your lager to rise to 15C and sit at that temp for quite a few days before bottling, then you would need more priming sugar than if you had bottled it at it's correct fermenting temperature of 10C.
b) If you fermented an ale at 20C and then (for some reason) allowed your ale to lower to 15C whilst it was still fermenting to some degree, then you would need less priming sugar than if you had bottled it at it's correct fermenting temperature of 20C.
c) If you wanted 2.5 Volumes of CO2 in both the above beers and bottled them at their correct fermentation temperature, you will need less sugar in the lager as it is holding, in solution, more CO2 than the ale.
d) If you wanted 2.5 Volumes of CO2 in both the lager and ale and bottled them when they were both at 15 C, you will need the same amount of sugar in each.
Jeez Josh, that's 6 really long sentences to straighten out your one!
.But, I'll give you some points back on the gravity thing
.As a matter of interest, Little Creatures uses lager yeast for priming their bottles of Little Creature's Pale Ale. I haven't had a super clear answer on why though.
PP
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Post #11 made 8 years ago
So much variance, too much information. I'm just going to have to test I guess. On the kits I used previously they always said IIRC that a level teaspoon per bottle was sufficient. I didn't find that to be the case, and I think I settled on almost a full rounded teaspoon, so probably about 11-12 grams per litre. That seems very high compared to some of the figures mentioned here.
The figures that Joshua quotes, for example, are even lower than half a teaspoon per bottle, nearer a quarter I think. I've got a sixteen litre batch nearer completion, so I'll try a few different levels and see what happens, starting I think with 8 grams per litre to I think 12. Should be able to do six bottles of each and see how it goes, if they're too flat, there won't be too many to drink in that state. I'll report back here in due course.
It does seem that there is a great deal of variance on this anyway, so at least it's not just me.
The figures that Joshua quotes, for example, are even lower than half a teaspoon per bottle, nearer a quarter I think. I've got a sixteen litre batch nearer completion, so I'll try a few different levels and see what happens, starting I think with 8 grams per litre to I think 12. Should be able to do six bottles of each and see how it goes, if they're too flat, there won't be too many to drink in that state. I'll report back here in due course.
It does seem that there is a great deal of variance on this anyway, so at least it's not just me.
Post #12 made 8 years ago
Yo, Esquid. As you said earlier, "So, "nobody knows", seems to be the consensus. I guess I'll experiment."
Have at it, and after you have carbonation results (approximate volumes CO2) resulting from the amounts of whatever agent you added per bottle or per unit volume of fermented wort (almost still beer) please post them on the forum to help us all out. Also include, if you would, the quantity of liquid you used for your calculations (was it the amount in the fermenter, or the volume that went into packaging) and the Temperature you plugged in, plus whether it was an ale or a lager. After all that, which of the various calculators did you find gave the number that lead to the preferred result? You can help answer the question you raised.
I had (bottled) one under-carbonated batch and it was very disappointing. My response? Up the corn sugar to the high side of all the amounts from all the calculators out there. Results over my next THREE 5 gallon batches? A few bottle bombs, more fountains upon opening than anybody wants (especially at HBC meetings
) and learning how to appreciate that no one formula is always right. The BIABacus Section Q (with a Temp added in Section H) gives me a number that is lower than my experience says I need and it has always been the lowest from the several website formulas I used. I have my own fudge factors for calculating how much corn sugar (in solution) to add to the bottling bucket on bottling day after each fermentation length and Temp for each brew type. Your Mileage Will Vary. The amount I add now is different from all the various calculators, but it works for me.
Good luck.
Have at it, and after you have carbonation results (approximate volumes CO2) resulting from the amounts of whatever agent you added per bottle or per unit volume of fermented wort (almost still beer) please post them on the forum to help us all out. Also include, if you would, the quantity of liquid you used for your calculations (was it the amount in the fermenter, or the volume that went into packaging) and the Temperature you plugged in, plus whether it was an ale or a lager. After all that, which of the various calculators did you find gave the number that lead to the preferred result? You can help answer the question you raised.
I had (bottled) one under-carbonated batch and it was very disappointing. My response? Up the corn sugar to the high side of all the amounts from all the calculators out there. Results over my next THREE 5 gallon batches? A few bottle bombs, more fountains upon opening than anybody wants (especially at HBC meetings
) and learning how to appreciate that no one formula is always right. The BIABacus Section Q (with a Temp added in Section H) gives me a number that is lower than my experience says I need and it has always been the lowest from the several website formulas I used. I have my own fudge factors for calculating how much corn sugar (in solution) to add to the bottling bucket on bottling day after each fermentation length and Temp for each brew type. Your Mileage Will Vary. The amount I add now is different from all the various calculators, but it works for me.Good luck.
Last edited by ShorePoints on 10 Apr 2016, 23:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #13 made 8 years ago
Esquid, I did not tell you I use Sucrose(cane), not Dextrose(Corn), or Fructose(Grapes).
Different Sugars have different priming Numbers.
Of Course, there are Many Advanced priming techniques see
https://www.northernbrewer.com/document ... ioning.pdf
Sorry PP
Different Sugars have different priming Numbers.
Of Course, there are Many Advanced priming techniques see
https://www.northernbrewer.com/document ... ioning.pdf
Sorry PP
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Post #14 made 8 years ago
Esquid wrote:So, "nobody knows", seems to be the consensus. I guess I'll experiment.
This could be said for all the knowledge humanity has gathered and tested (and tested, and tested ... ). So, if you ask me ... you're on the right track. Use something, anything that feels right ... and set a baseline to adjust from.
It may look weak, but the conversation in this thread just proves that people on this site would like to give you the best answer possible. If you are looking for a black and white snapshot of how priming sugar is calculated ... this group of guys recognizes they would be doing you a huge disservice in delivering blanket statements.
Just like everything else, the rabbit hole can go pretty deep if you are willing to explore it.
Last edited by Rick on 11 Apr 2016, 19:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #15 made 8 years ago
I had some rambly post above which I've ditched . Hopefully Esquid, from the posts above, you are finding that you are not alone in finding this area bewildering 
. We have solved this sort of thing before with community effort and I'm sure we can do it again.
I reckon throw your actuals into that thread.
For discussion, the best thread to use will be the BIABacus Bulk Priming Calculator thread.
In the actuals thread, you'll seee a template. There's more variables than I thought. Please let me know in the Priming Calculator thread if I have missed anything.
PP
. Hopefully Esquid, from the posts above, you are finding that you are not alone in finding this area bewildering . We have solved this sort of thing before with community effort and I'm sure we can do it again.I finally got around to doing that - Priming/Carbonation 'Actuals' Needed for BIABacus.PistolPatch wrote:I think the best thing is if we started a priming thread based on reality rather than theory.
I reckon throw your actuals into that thread.
For discussion, the best thread to use will be the BIABacus Bulk Priming Calculator thread.
In the actuals thread, you'll seee a template. There's more variables than I thought. Please let me know in the Priming Calculator thread if I have missed anything.
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 13 Apr 2016, 22:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:
Post #16 made 8 years ago
Josh I have read these links and there was no mention of the corelation between high gravity and priming sugar levels. The links simply reinforced what I had said about yeast health. I think the statement that high gravity beers needing more sugar to carb is actually a dangerous notion. If you add extra sugar the results will be sweeter beer if the yeast crap out or bottle bombs if the yeast consume everything.joshua wrote:Lumpy5oh, the links I have are...
http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/t" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... rew.41927/
and
https://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/co" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... advice_on/
These are older bookmarks, but are still available.
Last edited by Lumpy5oh on 14 Apr 2016, 11:16, edited 1 time in total.
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